Thomas and Emma WILLIAMS possibly of Caerhun

[jom]

Thank you Hugo and Meleri,
You have voiced the concerns I have had for some time and certainly relevant if the marriage you dug up Meleri is correct.  The problem is finding more information on either Thomas Williams and Emma EVANS marriage or finding my Thomas.  I do feel nearer an answer one way or another and am going to look at the site you have suggested too.  Cheers, both

[Meleri]

Following on from the baptism you found for Thomas on 16th April 1769 Llanrwst, I have found a possible Burial record for him on 11th June 1836 in Llanrwst. His age is given as 68 making the birth date about 1768. The abode is Brynsyllty, which sounds to me like a house name and then I found it in the Dyffryn Aur Hamlet of Tafarn Y Fedw which is about 1 mile north east of Llanrwst.
It's the nearest match I can find from the information we have cobbled together, perhaps Hugo can find out more when he is next in the Archive.

[jom]

Thanks Meleri.  Bit of a blow in some ways as it's before the 1837 registration so won't get a certificate to see occupation etc. It does fit with why Emma was on her own in 1841.  Shame it doesn't state married or widowed on her census return.

So, at the moment and assuming he is the right one, which I'm not actually, and putting thoughts down, the story would go something like this ...

Thomas Williams, bn abt 1769 Llanrwst a shoemaker, (though we don't know that the Thomas born 1769 was a shoemaker) (may be son of John and Elizabeth of Llanrwst) marries Emma EVANS (Bn abt 1775 to Edward and Mary Evans, a shoemaker of Rowen, Caerhun), 1812 in Llanddoget, once a spinning woman.  But why marry Llanddoget?  Emma was noted as being of the parish at the time of marriage so may have gone there for work.  Both Thomas and Emma were noted as single, but this would make them 43 and 37 years old respectively, as you say Hugo, unusual.  May account for only 2 children though.

They have 2 known children Mary Bp 1814 Caerhun, (Noted as being from Rowen when baptised) who did not marry but had an illegitimate daughter Mary PRITCHARD (who married shoemaker John LLOYD in 1875, at Llanrwst) ...
and John Bp 1817 Caerhun, (noted as being from Rowen in census and baptism records) a gardener and later publican of the Old Telegraph, who married before 1865 to someone unknown.  Having been widowed and no sign of surviving offspring, he married Martha ELLIOTT in Daventry in 1865 and took her to Llandudno.  (Northampton area being well known for shoes of course but this may be irrelevant).

An awful lot of assumptions and little corroboration for the early part.  Somehow don't think we will attain a greater degree of certainty and will always be a vague possibility, but fun figuring it out!

I am awaiting access to the website you mentioned to look for Thomas in the cemeteries

Thanks again ... enjoying the hunt 

[Hugo]

I'll have a look again in the Archives when I'm next there, but not sure when that will be.

[jom]

The link certainly leads to a wonderful site Meleri.  Sadly not found anything in Llanrwst or Llanddoget.  Will keep looking and googling.  Certainly a site for future searches though.  Thanks to you and Hugo

[Hugo]

I had a look in the Archives yesterday and rechecked the Burial Indexes for Llanrwst.  The ones I checked were the St Grwst, St Mary's. Tabernacle and Hen Gapel Bethel but according to the web site there were 5 Cemeteries there so one is missing.
Anyway there was no trace of Emma or Thomas' burial in any of them.     Also missing was the Burial Index for Llanddoged and the Archivist didn't seem to know where the record was although some one researching records there knew that there was one as she had actually read it.
So it's still a mystery.
I did see the wedding banns in the Llanddoget Register for Thomas and Emma and had a photo copy done but I must have had a senior moment and left it there but I did phone and they are keeping the copy for me.

[jom]

Thank you Hugo.  Very kind.  Really appreciate the help you have kindly given.  The only headstone photos I've not searched from the earlier link are those for the possible missing cemetery "Sceion" if memory serves.  Will be doing that soon. Some of course are illegible.

[Hugo]

I was in the Archives and the Llanddoged Burial Index is still missing so I looked through the Church Parish Register but couldn't find anything between 1836 and 1860 for Emma and Thomas Williams.   There was a Thomas Williams from Tafarn Y Fedw who died in 1846 but he was only 16 at the time.
I came across 4 magazines about the main streets in Llanrwst,  Scotland Street,  Denbigh Street,  Station Road and Watling Street.
I had a look at the one for Scotland Street and in it they listed the people living in the street in 1851 and also their occupation.   The shoemakers there were:-
Owen Williams at No 2
David Williams at No 7
William Williams at No 7
but no mention of Emma or Thomas Williams

I collected the copy of the Wedding Banns and attach it below

[jom]

Thank you Hugo. Kind and helpful as always.  Looks as though this brick wall may remain that way for some time to come but always hopeful.  At least I have possibilities and clues.  More than I did thanks again to this great forum

[Hugo]

Jom,   I'm in Llandudno on Tuesday and will call in at the Archives and concentrate on finding Emma's grave.   As she remained a widow it's possible that she is buried with Thomas.  That's what I'm hoping for anyway.
It's a mystery as there was a Cemetery in Scotland Street Llanrwst very close to her house but she did have connections with other villages in the Conway Valley too.

[jom]

Thanks very much.  That would be lovely and will keep my fingers crossed ££$

[Hugo]

I found a link last week called  British History Online which is very handy for looking at old addresses and you might find it interesting.
I put in Henryd and was looking for something in the area when I came across Derwen Deg Copper mine (disused) and it struck a bell on another topic.
Your ancestor Moses Jones lived there and died in Gyffin in 1842 ( I think)   I was never able to find his grave but often wondered where Derwen Deg was and it was there right at the very top of the map.
Henryd and Gyffin are villages next to each other in the Conwy Valley.
Anyway this afternoon I'll go to the Archives and see what I can find out about Emma and will post it here.

[Hugo]

I did call at the Archives today but sadly didn't find out anything about Emma from the computer system they had there and her burial isn't in the 4 Cemetery records for Llanrwst that they have there.
They do have records for Burials, births,  baptisms etc and some go back to the 1600's.     If you tell me what you would like me to search for then I'll have a look next time I go to the Archives.

I've just noticed that the witness to Emma's death lived in Llandudno but haven't checked St Tudno's Church on the Great Orme for her burial.  Is there any chance that she could be buried there?

[jom]

hi Hugo,
Thanks so much.  Will have a think and put down some logical thinking.  Emma's informant was her son John who was buried at St. Tudno cemetery plot A074.  In the same plot is his wife Martha (nee Elliott) and daughter Mary Alice.  Have attached transcription of the gravestone, churchyard map and photo which I think you may have taken for me

As for the maps, wow such a help for me over here.  Great site thanks.  Will have a good think to figure out where best to look.  Do shift work so it may be a day or two but thank you

[Meleri]

I have recently found out the person who set up The Clwyd Monumental Inscription site I told you about, has also got some transcriptions of burials in Llanrwst before 1920. Perhaps if you e-mail him with names,dates etc. he could help.  ££$