Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 89323 times)

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Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #210 on: March 13, 2015, 02:33:07 pm »
Thanks for posting the photo Hugh, but I'm not entirely convinced that, that is where Margaret lived.    The Census forms were done in some type of order even if it is not always obvious to follow.    This morning I had a walk along Pen Tai and saw all the properties in the street.
Ffraid Villa is now one property ( prev No 49 &50) and Bryn Eglwys Terrace of houses starts nine doors away.  It doesn't seem logical that the Census enumerator would then go back to No 1 Pen Tai and then go past Bryn Eglwys to pick up the next one Ty Mawr at No 63.
I might be completely wrong in this and I can't identify where she lived for certain.
While I was looking around I met an old work colleague of mine who has lived in Pen Tai for the last 30 years and he invited me in to his house and showed me the old parts and the new conversions and it's a really lovely property.
He told me that No 1 Pen Tai was not a cottage but an old warehouse that stored tobacco and other things and belonged to Ffraid Villa. On that basis I think that the cottage Margaret lived in was was the fourth inhabited property in the street from Ffraid Villa No 50 and that would make it No 5 Pen Tai
I've enclosed a photo I took of some of the houses in Pen Tai.   Ffraid Villa is on the extreme left behind the large block of flats.    Bryn Eglwys is out of sight and four cottages away to the right.  No 5 Pen Tai is the first of the half stone half timber buildings on the left with the chairs outside.

After going there I carried on to Eglwysbach and spoke to a young farmer and found that Tyddyn Iolyn is now a ruin and there is no access to it from the road only through private farm land and as it was muddy I decided to give it a miss.   Llwyn Onn I couldn't find and the farmer didn't know where it was either.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #211 on: March 13, 2015, 11:10:56 pm »
After checking my notes again I've come across something that is puzzling me and that is that there are only 10 cottages between Ffraid Villa  (No50)  and the next named property Ty Mawr. (No63)
Yet on the 1891 Census there are 12 properties between the two named houses.   I know that there have been alterations to the cottages over the years but I've tried to take that into account.
The 10 properties there are No's 2,3 & 4 Pen Tai,  No's 5, 6 & 7 Pen Tai  ( half stone,half timber ) and 4 in the Bryn Eglwys Terrace.    There were 3 families living there called Hughes.   J Hughes (No 53)  R Hughes ( No 57) &  Wm Hughes  (No 60)

I don't know the area well enough to explain what has happened to the missing two properties but am guessing that they may have been demolished when the new cemetery was built but also the gable end of No 2 Pen Tai does seem odd for an end of terrace property.
I still think that Margaret's home was one of those in the last photo I posted but which one?
Perhaps Cambrian may be able to help with the missing two properties.


Offline Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #212 on: March 14, 2015, 09:35:02 am »
Hugo,

I think the first two cottages of Pen Tai were demolished to allow the building of a warehouse, known locally as "The Factory".  This was the base of Robert Williams Tobacco Factor.  He lived in the larger house next to it - in the direction of the chapel.  The "Factory" itself was demolished a few years ago and some new housing built on the site.  The occupants of 53 are John Hughes and family. He owned Victoria Shop. I have managed to identify No 36 - not directly relevant to the Davies family - it was the Ship Inn and is still called "The Ship" although now a private house next to the Post Office. No 31 was also a pub at one time, "The Prince of Wales", now called "Benarth" and also a private house.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #213 on: March 14, 2015, 12:37:00 pm »
Thanks for all that info Cambrian and that would explain the discrepancy between the number of cottages now and the number of occupiers in 1891.    I still think that the Census would have continued with the same pattern as it had done from Llanrwst Road A470 and up and along Pen Tai.    At some stage there must have been a renumbering of the houses at Pen Tai, as the present No 1 Ty Newydd  Flats occupies the land where the original two cottages where.
With your latest info   J Hughes would have lived at the present No 2 cottage and Margaret Davies would have lived next door at the present day No 3.
Hugh,  No 3 is the house on the left of the cream coloured cottage in my last photo.     Pen Tai is an elevated street that has views to the mountains from the front doors and the traffic is quiet there unlike the busier Church Street below.
I've a feeling that there are more secrets to unravel in William's past and they may lie in Glan Conwy, but finding them is the problem.  We have mentioned Llan on here before and in the past it was a small concentrated area around the Church comprising mainly Church Street, Pen Tai and Bryn Eglwys,  Top Llan Road and Llanrwst Road.    Elizabeth was in this area when she had William and was a domestic servant.   It could even mean that she was a housekeeper for someone such as the William the widower that you came across in your searches.
 

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #214 on: March 14, 2015, 02:01:05 pm »
I understand the logic Hugo, but I can say quite definitely that John and Lucy Hughes & family lived at the address 1 Bryn Eglwys.  I know descendants of theirs and most of their children were born at that address. John Hughes himself lived to the ripe old age of 93. By a strange coincidence, one of John Hughes' descendants is currently married to one of David & Margaret Wynne's!

Back to the Census: I wonder if the explanation is that, for whatever reason, the enumerator has begun at the Bryn Eglwys end of the street and worked back to join those he had already done. The forms we are seeing are, of course, not a register he would carry around "door to door" but result of forms he will have collected or filled in for households then copied out into the return. This would explain some of the variations.  If he filled in the return starting at Bryn Eglwys end and worked back, that would give 50/51/52/53 as the Bryn Eglwys houses and the remainder as Pentai.  This would mean that Margaret was living at either the first or the last house of Pentai. I hope this makes some sense.


Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #215 on: March 14, 2015, 04:18:56 pm »
I can understand what you are saying Cambrian and that is a definite possibility.  Every Census is different and it's quite likely that the 1881 Census and 1901 Census could follow a different direction.
Hugh though needs conclusive proof before he can say for certain which cottage Margaret actually lived in.    A comparison of the street in the 1881 Census and 1901 Census may get the answer.  If only they had the numbers and street names on them,

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #216 on: March 14, 2015, 07:12:43 pm »
I have had a quick look at the 1871 census which follows a different route as you suspected, Hugo.  After Ty Mawr, the route goes up Top Llan Road rather than down Church Street. The 10 houses in Pentai are listed. There are 13 houses between a house where a Methodist Minister was staying (Ty Capel Ebenezer ??) and Ty Mawr but no mention of Bryn Eglwys or Ffraid Villa.  I wonder if there were a couple of very old cottages on the site of Bryn Eglwys and later they were demolished to make way for the terrace of 4.

Jane Evans is in the fourth house listed in Pentai.  Her husband was called John and he was born in Llanrhos.  That I suspect may be the connection, could he have been related to the Davies family ? As to the location of the house, I wonder if the simple explanation is that they just moved along. 

I have no access to the 1881 so perhaps Hugh can check.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #217 on: March 14, 2015, 10:38:18 pm »
Thanks for going to all that trouble Cambrian, it's still a mystery but if Hugh can check the 1881 Census for the Pentai area we might have more idea of which house Margaret actually lived in.
Most of the property may have been rented and as you say the people moved from one place to another, the fact that you identified the street means that we know that she either lived in Pen Tai or Bryn Eglwys in 1991.

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #218 on: March 16, 2015, 04:55:05 am »
Thanks for going to all that trouble Cambrian, it's still a mystery but if Hugh can check the 1881 Census for the Pentai area we might have more idea of which house Margaret actually lived in.
Most of the property may have been rented and as you say the people moved from one place to another, the fact that you identified the street means that we know that she either lived in Pen Tai or Bryn Eglwys in 1991.

Hugo. Here are the images for the 1881 Census - will need to sent over a number of posts.

Offline DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #219 on: March 16, 2015, 04:57:04 am »
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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #220 on: March 16, 2015, 04:59:41 am »
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Re: Daviies Family
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Offline Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #223 on: March 16, 2015, 09:10:38 am »
Thanks Hugh, I've printed them off but will need some time to look at them so they make sense.   First impression is that the Census has been done in a different order again but will study them in more detail asap.

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #224 on: March 16, 2015, 12:49:24 pm »
Yes, the 1881 enumerator has a different walking order.  If you follow the round the back of the Church from Ty Mawr, the first 4 houses are 1-4 Bryn Eglwys (87, 88, 89 and an unoccupied one which would be 90)  John and Jane Evans are at 91 so that will be the last cottage before Bryn Eglwys.  This seems to fit with other info except in this one John's parish of birth is given as Llangwstenin rather than Llanrhos.  (The boundaries must have been confusing even then!)

Of interest also is 102 which is the home of David and Catherine Wynne.  These are the parents of David Wynne who married Margaret, sister of Elizabeth Davies.