Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 48577 times)

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Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #90 on: January 16, 2015, 07:20:55 PM »
Luckily I have kept some notes on Eglwysbach families that I was researching some years ago.  I believe that Edward and Margaret Davies were both born in Eglwysbach, him in 1812 and her in 1817.  Does this tally with what has been gleaned from the Census details I wonder.  I'm not sure if this info helps other than to suggest that there was a geographical connection between the younger Margaret Davies and her future husband David Wynne both families originating from the same village.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #91 on: January 16, 2015, 07:57:47 PM »
It does Cambrian, have a look at pg 5 and you'll see what I've posted.   The 1861 Census shows Edward and Margaret both from Eglwysbach and  5 of their 10  children,

In my last post I refer to Mary, Jane and Elizabeth living in Conwy in the 1891 Census all working as boot shoe makers and I was wondering if Edward & Margaret Davies had a daughter called Jane.

There seems to be a lot of connections and co incidents to what you and I have found on here.   Do you know if they had a daughter called Jane?

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #92 on: January 16, 2015, 09:55:50 PM »
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Luckily I have kept some notes on Eglwysbach families that I was researching some years ago.  I believe that Edward and Margaret Davies were both born in Eglwysbach, him in 1812 and her in 1817.  Does this tally with what has been gleaned from the Census details I wonder.  I'm not sure if this info helps other than to suggest that there was a geographical connection between the younger Margaret Davies and her future husband David Wynne both families originating from the same village.

Hi Cambrian.  The 1841 Census shows their birth years as 1811 and 1817. The 1851 Census shows 1813 and 1818. The 1861 and 1871 Census shows 1812 and 1817. The 1881 Census shows 1811 and 1818.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #93 on: January 16, 2015, 11:38:43 PM »
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It does Cambrian, have a look at pg 5 and you'll see what I've posted.   The 1861 Census shows Edward and Margaret both from Eglwysbach and  5 of their 10  children,

In my last post I refer to Mary, Jane and Elizabeth living in Conwy in the 1891 Census all working as boot shoe makers and I was wondering if Edward & Margaret Davies had a daughter called Jane.

There seems to be a lot of connections and co incidents to what you and I have found on here.   Do you know if they had a daughter called Jane?

Well done Hugo!!

Edward and Margaret did have a daughter called Jane. Jane was their eldest child born in 1840. Elizabeth was born in 1858 and Mary was born in 1860. This would seem to be a completely different set of birth dates and birth order to the Mary, Jane and Elizabeth you found.

However, it is an exciting prospect that you have discovered a) a William Davies who was an illegitimate birth and b) the mother having an occupation that eventually William would adopt.  I will do some digging on the three sisters to see what I can find.  What was the birth date and place in the birth record you found of William Davies?  Is it possible to obtain a copy?

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #94 on: January 17, 2015, 12:03:00 PM »
Thanks Hugh,   I do think this William was your Grandfather but Elizabeth's occupation was listed as a domestic servant at the time the birth was registered.
The Elizabeth Davies who was the boot shoe maker in the 1891 may not be William's mother as the ages of her two sister's do not agree with those that you know for certain, so it's a bit more investigating for you.
I've copied and posted on here all the info that was recorded in the Register so I have no other info to report.   Under no circumstances can a photocopy of the Register be made so you would need to get a copy of the birth certificate.  I don't know how you would go about that but I would suggest that you phone the office up and discuss the matter with the person.

The Register Office, Town Hall, Lloyd Street, Llandudno, LL30 2UP
Offices are open 9.00 am - 5.00 pm Monday to Friday                                    E-mail      registration.services@conwy.gov.uk


There is obviously a fee for this purpose but the cost will depend on your personal circumstances and they will guide you through it.
Phone 01492 576525 (add international code)   and ask for Glenys.    When you speak to her tell her what you want and quote this:-
Ref  Creuddyn  17/65     Entry   322
She will then be able to go straight to the record that we found there
Good luck with that



DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #95 on: January 17, 2015, 01:31:36 PM »
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Thanks Hugh,   I do think this William was your Grandfather but Elizabeth's occupation was listed as a domestic servant at the time the birth was registered.

Goodness me. What a journey.   

It starts in 1830 when a William Davies marries Elizabeth Griffith. By 1841, William’s occupation is listed as a Shoe Maker and they are living in High St Conway and have a number of children, Hugh 9, Mary 7, David 4, John 1 and Jane 15 (whom I assume is a servant).

By 1851, William is still a Shoe Maker but has added Parish Clerk to his duties. All the children from the 1841 Census are still living in the family home. In addition to these, Elizabeth 6, Jane 3 and William Taliesin 1 have also joined the family.

By 1861, William’s business appears to be blossoming. His occupation is listed as “Parsih Clerk and Boot and Shoemaker employing 5 men and the boy” (presumably a reference to his son David who is listed as a Shoemaker. Hugh and John are no longer living there and neither is Elizabeth who should be 16. Another Elizabeth 6 has been listed  - does this indicate the first Elizabeth has died.

The 1871 Census shows William as a “Master Shoemaker and Parish Clerk”. David and William have now moved on, and it would appear that the second Elizabeth has either passed on or is living elsewhere. This leaves William and Elizabeth with their children Mary, Jane and John J.

By 1881, his wife Elizabeth has passed away and his occupation no longer lists him as a Parish Clerk.  The only family members living with him are Mary, Jane, Elizabeth (the second Elizabeth), and a grandson, William T 7.

The 1991 census indicates that William has now also passed away and the sisters have switched business from the shoe and boot making business to the proprietors of the Bridge Hotel in Conway.

I also used North Wales BMD site which lists the birth of a William Taliesin Davies in 1874.  This name is the same as the son born to William and Elizabeth in 1850, and coincides with the 1881 Census.

Again, what a find Hugo! I cannot imagine that these people are not my grandfather’s relatives. There is too much coincidence involved. The only mystery is, as it has always been, where was William Davies in the 1991 Census? I have checked Prison Records and Poorhouse records, none of which seem to be relevant. Another possibility is that William became a Merchant Seaman and was not in the UK at the time of the 1891 Census. Potentially it could be a case of William spending the night in a location that was not appropriate to document, or indeed a simple oversight on the part of the ‘Head’ of the household William was staying in on the night of the Census.
I will be having another look at all the records and assumptions once my excitement dies down, but I must admit, the above scenarios look very favourable.

Later…

Okay, I am now more confused than ever. The North Wales BMD reference I found for a William Taliesin Davies (which I thought matches the William T Davies in the 1881 Census) has a reference of CONWY/08/72 (b.1874). The reference you have provided CREUDDYN/17/65 refers to a William Davies born in 1875. Will have another review of all of this.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #96 on: January 17, 2015, 05:09:28 PM »
It's tricky Hugh and is getting a bit complicated.    The Davies family of Conwy doesn't quite match but could be related in some way to the Davies family whose Grandparents come from Eglwysbach.
You need to get the Birth Certificate of William Davies and see if there is any other info that you can gleam from it and then continue your search based on that.
Contact Glenys on that number I've provided and she'll guide you through the process and cost,  She's very helpful and can answer your questions on that entry.
One thing though Hugh is don't forget the time zones between the UK and Brisbane when you make the phone call.
Cambrian may come up trumps again with his research in Eglwysbach and it may help you to find William and Elizabeth in the 1891 Census



DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #97 on: January 19, 2015, 10:32:56 AM »
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It's tricky Hugh and is getting a bit complicated.    The Davies family of Conwy doesn't quite match but could be related in some way to the Davies family whose Grandparents come from Eglwysbach.
You need to get the Birth Certificate of William Davies and see if there is any other info that you can gleam from it and then continue your search based on that.
Contact Glenys on that number I've provided and she'll guide you through the process and cost,  She's very helpful and can answer your questions on that entry.
One thing though Hugh is don't forget the time zones between the UK and Brisbane when you make the phone call.
Cambrian may come up trumps again with his research in Eglwysbach and it may help you to find William and Elizabeth in the 1891 Census

I have contacted Glenys who remembered your latest research and was most helpful. I have purchased a copy of the Birth Certificate which will be posted to me in due course, but Glenys will email a scanned copy of the certificate which I should have tomorrow.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #98 on: January 19, 2015, 11:21:53 AM »
That's great news Hugh, I bet you can't wait until you see the copy.    I thought that you'd find Glenys helpful as getting the copy records wasn't as straightforward as it would have been if you were living in the UK.
It'll be interesting to see if there is any more info to be obtained from the actual copy of the Birth Certificate

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #99 on: January 20, 2015, 08:09:32 AM »
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That's great news Hugh, I bet you can't wait until you see the copy.    I thought that you'd find Glenys helpful as getting the copy records wasn't as straightforward as it would have been if you were living in the UK.
It'll be interesting to see if there is any more info to be obtained from the actual copy of the Birth Certificate

Hi Hugo. I have attached a copy (as sent to me by Glenys) of the birth certificate.  Unfortunately, it only contains minimal details - specifically the address which is "Llan Llansantffraid".  However, I remain upbeat and have begun a scan of the 1871 and 1881 Census records. Let me know if you have any insights into the attached certificate. For example why is their a "Llan" in front of "Llanssantffraid"? Thanks again.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #100 on: January 20, 2015, 11:16:21 AM »
Thanks Hugh,  I have printed out the copy of the Birth Certificate which is exactly as shown in the Registry.  At least we know that William was born on 13th November 1875.
With regards to the Llan Llansanffraid it's not a mistake or anything but is exactly how Cambrian has described it.   The Church of St Braid's is in the middle of the village of Llansanffraid and the immediate area around the Church is called  Llan
The houses are mainly small cottages and are quite old.
For example 2 Sea View Cottage where Margaret Wynne (nee Davies) lived is not far away from the Church but I'm not sure if that is in the area generally called Llan.
Cambrian is the expert on Glan Conwy and he can tell you the location of the area called Llan
It might be worth having a go at this,  William was born 1875 so Elizabeth should appear on the 1871 Census and hopefully living in Llansanffraid Glan Conwy.    If you go on the Census for 1871 you can scroll back and forth until you find an Elizabeth Davies that fits the description of a possibility for William's mother eg age  and location.
It's only a wild chance though because often unmarried women were sent away to have their babies to save embarrassment to their parents.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #101 on: January 21, 2015, 02:52:41 PM »
I went to the Library today and had a go on Find my past and Ancestry as searches there are free.  I tried variations of William by himself and William with Elizabeth but couldn't find a trace of William in the Wales or England Census of 1891.
I'm completely baffled as to why his name hasn't appeared in these various searches and just hope that you have more luck than me.

Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #102 on: January 21, 2015, 07:19:07 PM »
Hugo,

Maybe I have missed something, but I had assumed "our" William (b 1875 Glan Conwy) had been traced to Trallwyn Farm for 1881, 1891, 1901 cenuses.

Just reverting to the "Llan" issue.  As I have mentioned "Llan" was a generic name used for the Village centre - hence "Top Llan Road".
Whilst the many public houses and a few shops are identifiable, I think the small cottages rarely had names or numbers in those days - everyone knew where everyone lived! In the more rural area of the parish it was different.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #103 on: January 21, 2015, 10:53:04 PM »
Cambrian,  if we think it's confusing for us living here just imagine how it is for Hugh down there in Australia.

Apparently we have found two William Davies' both born in Glan Conwy in 1875 and shown in later Census records as boot shoe makers

In the 1881 Census living at Lower Brickfield  is a William Davies,  Grandson of Edward Davies head of the family.   According to Hugh Edward had 10 children, 7 girls and 3 boys.    One of the girls is called Elizabeth and is  old enough to have been William's mother by 1875.

In the 1881 Census living at Trallwyn Farm is another William Davies the same age as his namesake.  He is described in that Census as the son of William Davies the head of the family.  William Snr's  wife was called Hannah and there is no mention of an Elizabeth living there.

However in the 1901 Census, William from Lower Brickfield is living in Caroline Road Llandudno  and the other William is still living on the farm

It looks like the William we are looking for is the one from Lower Brickfield but Elizabeth is the key to this.  We first thought that William's mother could have been Dorothy who worked in Glan Conwy but the Birth Certificate has proved it is Elizabeth Davies

To confuse the issue further I found an Elizabeth Davies in the 1891 Census, her occupation was a boot shoe maker like William but she lived in Conwy and according to the 1891 Census was born in Conway and not Glan Conway.  If she had of been William's mother she would have been aged about 17 at the time of the birth

I've tried numerous times but cannot find a William Davies and or Elizabeth Davies in the 1891 Census who meets the criteria but haven't had any luck there

I would think that Church Street, Pentai  and top Llan Road are the areas where Elizabeth lived at the time of the Registration of the birth

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #104 on: January 27, 2015, 07:16:54 AM »
I have been going to some lengths to solve the puzzle of William Davies.  I have gone forward on the assumption that the Birth Certificate received recently is in fact my Grandfather.

My first step was to undertake a search of the 1881 Census using William Davies, 1875 +- 1yr, and Birth County of Denbighshire or Caernarvonshire. A total of 79 possibilities were returned each of which was examined for a possible match. Any match which listed a father was discounted.  Only one entry matched the known facts. That was the one mentioned on a number of occasions in this post - a William Davies (Grandson) Lower Brick Field Eglwys-Rhos Conway.

For this entry to be correct then Edward and Margaret Davies (Grandparents) must have had a daughter Elizabeth who was of a suitable age in 1875 to give birth to William Davies.  A search of the 1861 Census found Elizabeth aged 3. Her birth town shown in the original image was EglwysRhos, Denbighshire.

Elizabeth was not living with her parents in 1871 or 1881 according to the respective Census records. So could well be working as a Domestic Servant during this time (the occupation of the mother in the birth certificate as at 1875). The next step was to attempt to locate Elizabeth in the 1871 Census record. She would not have been of an age to have married so should be listed as Elizabeth Davies. The search criteria returned a total of 56 records. The transcripts did not include the birth town which had to be done using the original Image. Only two records were deemed to be a possible match:

The first match shows an Elizabeth Davies working as a Domestic Servant (General) in the Vale Street Anchor Inn, Denbigh, St Asaph, Denbighshire. Her birth place is recorded as Denbighshire, Denbigh, and Year of Birth 1857.  The second match shows an Elizabeth Davies working as a Domestic Servant in Portland Place, Denbigh, St Asaph, Denbighshire. Her birth place is recorded as Denbighshire, Denbigh, and Year of Birth 1857.

The first match would have provided a opportunity to meet many "suitors" assuming she was still there in early 1875. The second match is a bit of a mystery. She was a servant in a household comprised of William H Breadew (Head, 30, Mason, b.Surrey, Kensington); Margaret (Wife, 32, b.Denbigh, Llanfair T.H); Thomas Breadew (Son, 10mths, b.Denbigh, Denbigh); Charlotte Breadew(Mother, 59, Surrey, Lambeth); John Breadew (Boarder, 24, Surrey, Lambeth).  Where is the mystery? I tried to find out a bit more about the Breadew family but kept coming up with blanks. In the end, I used the Find My Past option for searching all of their records using only the surname of Breadew. The only matches were those for the 1871 Census as listed above. One explanation is that the original image has not been transcribed accurately. The original image is not one of great quality so could be the reason. I have attached this image below and would welcome any suggestions for possible surname.  So, this is where I am at the moment. After the birth of William, Elizabeth could well have married. The mystery of the absence of a William Davies match in the 1991 Census remains just that, a mystery. As usual, any comments, suggestions or corrections are more than welcome.