Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 49449 times)

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Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2014, 03:10:08 PM »
I agree with your thoughts, Hugo.

A bit more info.

Edward and Margaret (1)'s daughter, Margaret (2) was born at Hendafarn, Llandudno on 7/12/1847.

Margaret (2) married David Wynne (b 12.12.1844 Eglwysbach) at Carmel Chapel, Conwy on 26/3/1869 and she died at Brickfield on 28/1/1903 - subsequently buried in Llanrhos Churchyard.

In the 1871 Census, David and Margaret Wynne were living at 2 Sea View, Glan Conway - it is quite possible that Dorothy went to her sister's home there for her confinement which would explain William's place of birth.


Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2014, 03:24:21 PM »
That sounds very feasible Cambrian and if Hugh can match that on a birth certificate then it will be a great breakthrough.

Thanks also to your info re Eglwys-Rhos we know that the birth had to be registered in Conway so that's the key to finding William's birth.
Baptism records that I have been looking for only recorded people who chose to have the child baptised, it was not compulsory unlike the births which had to be legally recorded

I feel that we are getting somewhere now.     $good$


Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2014, 10:57:10 PM »
Just noticed a boo boo I made on pg 5,  the third picture of a Census is for 1861 and not 1871 as stated ( although the picture is correctly named)

There is still a large and related Davies family still  living in this area and they had a number of farms around here too.  It'll be interesting to see if Hugh can now get the correct birth certificate and the address shown on it and can obtain the names of the people listed in the 1930 Penygroes voters list.

That may help with  further searches

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #78 on: January 02, 2015, 05:03:36 PM »
Hugh,  all being well I'm hoping to go to the Archives next week as there are a few things I want to look up.    If you find out anything new could you please post it on here so I don't duplicate anything you already know.
It might be best if we establish William's birth details eg. mother, address etc and that will give us something to build on.
I'll post any photos, findings etc on here once I've been to the Archives

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #79 on: January 05, 2015, 08:29:01 PM »
Hugh,  I went to the Archives this afternoon but didn't get much luck with my searches.  The first thing I looked at was the 1910 rates book for Llandudno (they didn't have one for 1909)  what I was hoping to see were all the houses in Cwlach Street in order,  with William Davies being the occupier of 2 Fron Cottage.   It didn't work out like that as they had a few listed in one part of the rates book but in another listed under the heading at pg 98  "Lord Mostyn Small tenament  cottages"  was William Davies as being the occupier of one of the two cottages called "Vron Cottages"     but it didn't give me any indication of where it was in the street.   
You may have noticed various spellings of certain words, some in English and some in Welsh.  The correct form is Fron (pronounced as Vron) as there is no V in our Welsh alphabet.
I'll try the voters list sometime and see if that helps.
I had a look in the Street Indexes for Colwyn Bay, Deganwy, Llandudno Junction and Conwy just in case William had remained in the area, but there was no William Davies shoe maker listed.
I had a look at the Eglwysrhos Baptism record but there was no entry for William.
I then had a look in the Baptism records for Llansanffraid Glan Conwy and found one entry for a William Davies.  The entry was No 1257 on the 14th December 1879.    It read William son of William and Mary Davies of Brynrodyn.   Again there is no proof that this is your William but a Birth Certificate from 1876 may help.

Having no luck in the Archives I went to Glan Conwy and took the following photos:-

The first two are of Sea View Terrace where Margaret nee Davies lived with her husband David Wynne at No 2

The third photo is of Trallwyn Farm where the other William Davies a shoe maker born in 1875 lived, the Carneddau Mountain range is in the background.

The fourth photo is of Ty'n Celyn a farm where Dorothy Davies worked according to the 1871 Census.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #80 on: January 09, 2015, 02:30:27 AM »
Hi All,

Sorry for the delay in responding, but I had to get myself another laptop.  My 10 month old granddaughter got a bit carried away with helping Pop use the keyboard so I decided to put the laptop on the floor. Unfortunately, in the process, the computer slipped off the 'Stable Table' I was using and fell end on onto the tiled floor and I could not get it to work again. The laptop came with Windows 8 which I come to hate with a vengeance. I have also had to reload software etc.  I will send a more detailed response in the next day or two.

Regards, Hugh

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #81 on: January 09, 2015, 11:22:44 PM »
I was at the open day today in Conwy Archives and asked about the Llandudno Register of Electors for 1910 but was told that they did not have it there.   They said that either the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon has it or it's at The National Library of Wales in Aberystwyth.
What I've done is e-mail the Gwynedd Archives to see if it is there.
As I see it the only way to work out exactly where 2 Fron Cottage was is to see the records and William's name and then work out where the house is in relation to the other houses there.
Good luck with your new laptop, I'm sure that you'll get used to it soon.



Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #82 on: January 12, 2015, 09:04:27 AM »
I came across something on the computer recently and it was a Marriage between Dorothy Davies and Owen Owens in the Conwy Registration District in 1884.
I don't know if the Dorothy was your relation or not but I do know that there were only a very small number of Dorothy Davies' that were eligible for marriage then.  It does help when tracing the ancestors if they have a name which is uncommon.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #83 on: January 14, 2015, 03:56:40 PM »
Hi Hugh,  I was at the Archives again but could find nothing new in the search for William's past and I now think that I have exhausted all the possibilities there.

You said that William was born in 1876 but what evidence have you got for that?    The reason I'm asking is because for instance the 1881 Census shows William as being 5 years old so you could presume that he was born 5 years earlier and that should make it 1876.

However The date of the 1881 census was the night of 3 April 1881  so if William had a birthday after the 4th April 1881 then he would have been born in 1875.   So from that there is a 75% chance that he was born in 1875 and not 1876

Bearing this in mind I went to the Register of Births, marriages and deaths in Llandudno and spoke to a very helpful and charming lady who had a look through the Register and computers.   As a result you can forget about the Conwy Registration records as they all had fathers and didn't fit the limited criteria that we know.

What we found was as shown below:-
13th November 1875   William Davies  born to Elizabeth Davies a Domestic Servant of  Llan  Llansanffraid
The ref  is Creuddyn 17/65     Entry 322

What I would like you to do now is double check everything to see if this matches in with your searches but please do not apply for any more Birth Certificates as hopefully you no longer need them.

Have you heard from the Gwynedd Archives yet about the 1930 Register of Electors?

The 1861 Census does show an Elizabeth Davies living at Marl Bach and she was born C 1858

By the way I have had an e-mail from the Gwynedd Archives and they have the 1910 Llandudno Register of Electors there and that may help to confirm where 2 Fron Cottage is.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #84 on: January 14, 2015, 09:58:49 PM »
I've just had a look on Roots.uk  and seen an entry in the 1991 Census for an Elizabeth Davies that may be William's mother.   Because I haven't subscribed to it the info is limited and shows:-

Elizabeth Davies born 1858 age 33 occupation boot shoe maker  birth place Conway

I wonder where she was living on the date of the Census because although I have made numerous searches I haven't found William on the 1991 Census.

If William is also shown as living with her in 1991 then that may give you the conclusive proof you need


Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #85 on: January 16, 2015, 11:55:06 AM »
I have now found Elizabeth in the 1891 Census and she is living at 3 High Street Conwy with her sisters Mary and Jane.  They are all described as shoe boot makers but their place of birth is given as Conway so there is no proof that that Elizabeth is the Elizabeth that I have seen in the Register of births.
I have tried and tried to find William in the 1891 Census record but cannot find him in the Caernarfonshire or Denbighshire records perhaps you may have had better luck than me.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #86 on: January 16, 2015, 12:11:30 PM »
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I have now found Elizabeth in the 1891 Census and she is living at 3 High Street Conwy with her sisters Mary and Jane.  They are all described as shoe boot makers but their place of birth is given as Conway so there is no proof that that Elizabeth is the Elizabeth that I have seen in the Register of births.
I have tried and tried to find William in the 1891 Census record but cannot find him in the Caernarfonshire or Denbighshire records perhaps you may have had better luck than me.

Hi Hugo,
I did send an email to the Gwynedd Archives about the 1930 Register of Electors. Their response was to send a reference to the form they referred you to (and subsequently posted to this thread).

I have been trying to validate all of my assumptions which in turn, has led to a tantalising possibility.  Firstly, the following has (as far as I can determine from the information availablefrom FindMyPast) been confirmed:
1911 Census  - Confirmed
1905 Marriage Certificate - Confirmed   
1901 Census - Confirmed

An initial search of the 1891 Census did not highlight anything definitive.  One entry listed a William Davies as having the correct birth town but an incorrect birth date (1885). A forward search showed this William still living with the Father on the property in 1901 so is ruled out due to the 1901 Census record confirmed above.

An initial search of the 1881 Census  showed only two possibilities:
1.   A William Davies aged 5 living with his grandparents. The age is incorrect but the birth place is a match.
2.   A William Davies aged 4 (correct age), having the correct birth place. However, a father is listed. William had a number of siblings listed in this Census.

Given the above are the only two possibilities, I used a less restrictive criteria to again search the 1891 Census and found a match to the second of the two 1881 Census possibilities. The match was consistent (in the main) to the parents and sibling listed in the 1881 record and showed that the family had moved to Mold, Chesire. Williamís father was Richard Davies and his mother was Dorothy. However, no potential matches were found for possibility one as listed above.

I also decided that only one of the four Birth Certificates I ordered seemed to be a match with the birth year and birth town.  The parentís names were Richard Davies and Dorothy Davies,  formerly Williams. This information was consistent with the second possibility identified in the 1881 Census. Following this family forwards indicates that Richard Davies died in 1891 (post 1891 Census). This 1891 Census record contains the only definitive record of a William Davies that can be matched up to the other records above.

One anomaly appears to be the record of a William Davies living with his grandparents on the night of the 1881 Census which has not been able to add any definitive information to this search.  However, the grandparents had a son, Richard Davies who was born around the same time as the Richard Davies listed as Williamís father.  One inconsistency is that Williamís father Richard is listed as being born in Ruthin Denbighshire (one record only), but as the son of the grandparents listed in the 1881 Census is listed as having a birth town of Eglwysfach, Denbighshire.

I guess the next step is to order a copy of the marriage certificate of Richard Davies and Dorothy Williams to confirm whether a relationship exists between that Richard and the ĎGrandparentsí of the 1881 Census record listinf William Davies as the Grandson.  Although this would indicate that William has been listed twice in the 1881 Census, it may well have been a misjudgement on the part of his parents or grandparents as to whether he should be included or not.

The above scenario seems to be the only one that fits the records available.  As usual, I welcome any comments or advice on these suppositions.

Regards to all, Hugh

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #87 on: January 16, 2015, 01:38:15 PM »
Hugh, you have obviously gone to a lot of trouble and effort in your research for William but one of the problems with things like the Census records is that you cannot always be certain that the info is correct.
For example the 1841 Census has the ages rounded down on adults so someone who was really 44 say, would have their age shown as 40.
Also the age shown on the Census is the age they were at the date of the Census (usually up to the first 3 days in April) but as we have seen it doesn't tell you for definite the year that they were born as it could be 1 year earlier than first thought.
Another thing is that the Census records completed by the Head of the household were then transferred manually on to the records we view now and this is liable to human error unfortunately

These are the facts that I know:-
We know William was born in Llansanffraid Glan Conwy in 1876 or 1875
All births for Glan Conwy were registered in the Conway Registration office so the record of his birth is there
I called at the Registrar of Births Marriages and deaths whose office is now in Llandudno and all the records of the births for 1875 and 1876 were viewed on the computer.
They were then checked against the original entry in the Registry and the only one without a father mentioned in the record was William born to Elizabeth Davies and recorded on the 13th November 1875.
The address was written like this   Llan
                                                      Llansanffraid
I'm no expert on Glan Conwy and perhaps Cambrian may know but from the Welsh word "Llan"  I presume that it was somewhere in the area surrounding the Church.
I have seen the official record myself and I am as certain as I can be that this is your Grandfather but you have to draw up your own conclusions.

I'm disappointed with the Gwynedd Archives for not giving you that info free but don't pay for any searches there yet as I may go there myself to see about 2 Fron Cottage and I can find out about Tre Ddafydd at the same time

Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #88 on: January 16, 2015, 02:59:11 PM »
Hi Hugo and Hugh

I think Hugo is on the right track regarding Glan Conwy.  The village centre was - and is - generally referred to as "Llan" and there are two other points to bear in mind.  Firstly, the original parish of Llansantffraid Glan Conwy was of larger extent than the current one - extending as far as Dawn and Trofarth, so each settlement had its own name.  I suspect "Llan" eventually became "Glan Conway".  The second point is that the smaller houses and terraces did not always have names and numbers in those days so it is not too uncommon in the Census to see many folk all listed for the same location without any distinction as to dwelling.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #89 on: January 16, 2015, 06:32:01 PM »
Thanks for that Cambrian, it's frustrating when you are looking for those smaller houses and terraces when they weren't named or numbered,

Hugh, as I've said I've been through all the William Davies born in 1875 or 1876 on the computer and also in the Registry that holds the original recording of the births and William born to Elizabeth is the only illegitimate person recorded.   I'm sure that's your Grandfather but where was he in 1891?

Elizabeth, Mary and Jane were the Davies living in Conway in 1891 and although their birthplace was shown as Conway I'm wondering if that info is true.    Edward Davies had 7 daughters you said, well Elizabeth and Mary were the names of two of them but did they have a daughter called Jane?

If they did have a daughter called Jane it may be just a coincidence with the Conway females but another coincidence is that they and William were all boot shoe makers.