Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 43729 times)

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Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #60 on: December 26, 2014, 08:57:45 AM »
Hugo - the Glan Conwy area has been in several Registration Districts or Sub-Districts over the years.  At one time it was Llanrwst, then Conwy and also part of the Creuddyn Sub-District.  The Registration staff at the Town Hall have full details of the dates concerned and are very helpful.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #61 on: December 26, 2014, 11:40:04 AM »
Thank you very much for that information Cambrian, it's really appreciated and will be very helpful for everyone who is doing research in the area,     $good$

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #62 on: December 26, 2014, 12:49:59 PM »
My cousin has done a lot of research for his family and in the process has requested a number of copies of various documents only to find that they do not relate to his relations.
It's therefore costly and frustrating if that happens so it's so important to be as sure as you can be before ordering the forms.
It means a lot to Hugh to get any info he can,  but now that you've confirmed that Llanrwst was at one time the Registration District for Glan Conwy it may be worth him applying for that remaining one.
I know the Archives did a little work free of charge and that's why I have suggested that Hugh e-mail the Gwynedd Archives just asking if they can supply details of all the people eligible to vote in 1930 at the address he supplied in Penygroes.
When Hugh gets a reply and publishes it on here, perhaps we can put our heads together and come up with the best way to proceed.  Thanks again Cambrian for your info as your local knowledge of these things is very helpful and important.   $good$

Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #63 on: December 26, 2014, 03:02:07 PM »
Hugo - checked a bit more.  Glan Conwy was in the Conway Registration District from 1837 until 1.10.1935 when it transferred to the Aled Registration District.  I think my reference to "Llanrwst" came from something I had looked at in the past where the postal address was Glan Conwy but the parish was actually Eglwysbach.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #64 on: December 26, 2014, 04:49:15 PM »
Thanks Cambrian,  I've just checked again with Google and agree with what you have said.   The Parish of Glan Conwy was quite big years ago and it could be an anomaly and was included in Llanrwst because of the location.
I've tried various sites to find William and each one has brought it down to 4 in St Asaph and one in Llanrwst.    It's a gamble going for a birth certificate but Hugh may want to take the chance as when he finds the correct one it'll be worth it.
By any chance do you know where the Baptism records for Glan Conwy are held?

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #65 on: December 26, 2014, 11:23:59 PM »
Hugh  I have no access at present to any of these Ancestry sites and won't be able to look at any in a library for a while now. 
Before you do anything about requesting another Birth Certificate is it possible to do an Ancestry search using Glan Conwy as the place of birth and using Conwy as the Registration District. 
Thanks to what Cambrian has found out, If this is possible then you have more chance of finding William.


I've had another look at Roots.uk and it shows only 3 entries for Conway in 1876  (  Conway V or  Conway Valley not appropriate)  but I am unable to view anything about the 3 William Davies'  but perhaps you may be able to access this info

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #66 on: December 27, 2014, 02:55:26 PM »
Hugh,  as I'm going nowhere over this Christmas period I took out a subscription with Genes Reunited and had another crack at tracing William Davies'e birth.
The first thing I can say is to discount the entry for Llanrwst as that William Davies lived in Llangernyw.
With the info Cambrian found and the Census of 1881 that DaveR found I can confirm the following.   In 1876, when William was born the Parish was called Eglwys-Rhos,  the Registration District for Eglwys-Rhos was Conway.
I have previously checked and now rechecked the Conway Birth Registers and there were 3 entries for a William Davies in 1876.   As a result of Genes reunited I have found all three but strangely, as you have found out already it seems that two (pages 14 and 15) have been duplicated.    This leaves only two entries but I cannot establish which one is your William.
Just for your info I have copied the records for you:-
1)    1881    Record Transcription of 1881 Census
2)     1881    Census form
3)     1876  Birth details  pg 12    Registered  July-Aug-Sept
4)      1876    "        "       pg 14  (duplicated with pg 15)       Registered  Apr-May-June
5)      1876    "         "      pg  15  (duplicated with pg 14)             "            "       "       "

I hope this can help you in your search



Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2014, 10:13:42 AM »
Hugh,  I don't know if you have found William on the 1891 Census.   I did using Ancestry and he was living in Caernarfonshire but I couldn't see where, as I don't subscribe to that website.
He must have left Glan Conwy  as he was about 16 and was working as a shoe maker,  his Grandparents in Glan Conwy may have died by then.   Do you know his address in the 1991 Census?

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2014, 12:12:23 PM »
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Hugh,  I don't know if you have found William on the 1891 Census.   I did using Ancestry and he was living in Caernarfonshire but I couldn't see where, as I don't subscribe to that website.
He must have left Glan Conwy  as he was about 16 and was working as a shoe maker,  his Grandparents in Glan Conwy may have died by then.   Do you know his address in the 1991 Census?

Hi Hugo. You certainly seem to have been very busy on my behalf. Where do I start? Okay, -

 - I have written to my potential cousin Gwyndaff in Pwllheli and am awaiting a response. 
 - I identified the three potential birth records for William Davies in Conwy back in 2010 and sent away for the associated birth certificates, all of which showed a father.
 - I looked at the You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login site for the birth of Edward Davies (eldest son of William and Catherine) and found, as expected, an entry for Llandudno. Similarly, an entry for my father Hugh Davies was similarly located, As I mentioned previously, dad's brother Richard mentioned in a letter that he loved the mountains he could see from his family's front door and in fact had been born in those mountains in his grandmother's cottage.   A search for Richard Davies showed possible records for Betws y Coed, Colwyn Bay, both in Conwy Count Borough (Llandudno) It would seem that the Bets y Coed seems to be the most mountainous of the two.  Is this a fair assumption?
 - I am somewhat frustrated that the Conwy and St Asaph birth records all show fathers.  There were two anomalies. The first was two entries in the Conwy records with the same Volume and Page number which proved to be two unique certificates with only the child's name William Davies in common. The second anomaly was a similar duplicate Volume and Page number for two of the St Asaph records which, in this instance, showed a common mother's name - ' Eleanor Davies formerly Roberts'.  I find it hard to believe that two Eleanor
Roberts married a Davies in such a small area then gave birth to a son within days of each other and both called their son William. So how do I seek clarification on this?   
 - Again, looking at the North Wales BMD site, there is only one match that seems to match the criteria =- William Davies b1876 Denbigh.  It could well be worth my while obtaining a copy of this record -however, they do not accept payment via credit card so I'll have to explore alternative payment methods.
 - Perhaps I should take a view that the absence of a father's name on William Davies' Marriage Certificate may not conclusively indicate that he was an illegitimate child. 

Any further ideas/advice warmly welcomed.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2014, 02:37:58 PM »
Hugh, there has been some confusion here between counties and Registration Districts and it's most unusual.     Llansanffraid Glan Conwy was in Denbighshire but for some unknown historical reason it came under the Parish of Eglwys-Rhos.     Now Eglwys- Rhos' Registration District for Births was Conway which was in Caernarvonshire.
Therefore any children born in Glan Conwy would have the birth registered in Conway and that should be the District that William's birth was registered at and even if William was illegitimate a birth certificate could, even if unlikely, still show the father's name.  At this moment please don't apply for any Birth Certificate when the birth hasn't been recorded in Conwy as you will be wasting your time and money.


It seems that William must have moved around a bit as you say that Richard born about 1908  in Betws Y Coed, Hugh was born 1909 in Cwlach Street Llandudno and in 1911 the family lived in Alexandra Road Llandudno and by 1914 the family had left the Alexandra Road address.

I think the cottage could be in Betws Y Coed but it might be better to stick with the facts that we know first before going down that route.
I would still suggest that you send an e-mail to Gwynedd Archives asking if they can let you know all the people registered to vote in 1930 and living at 2 Tre Ddafydd  Pen Y Groes.    Please let me know how you get on.
The 1891 shows William living in Caernarvonshire and I would suspect that he is living in Llandudno then as he was there in 1901.  Have you looked at the 1891 Census and if so what was his address?
If you have copies of the Conwy registered birth certificates does the address on it  fit in with the Glan Conwy address on the Census for 1881?

I can't do anything positive until after the 5th Jan 2015 as the Archives are closed until then.  Ancestry, Find my Past etc are available there for free but I tend to go to our local library where they are also free there too.


Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2014, 06:00:18 PM »
I've been searching again for William Davies born in Glan Conway and seen the one born in 1876 at Lower Brickfield that Dave found in the 1881 Census, this I take it is the same person that appears in the 1901 Census living in Caroline Road.  I cannot though find him in the 1891 Census.
Sorry to put a spanner in the works Hugh but I've also found another William Davies born in Glan Conway but may be in 1875.  This William Davies lived at Trallwyn Farm and I've traced him through the 1881, 1891 and 1901 Census records and surprisingly enough in 1891 when he was 16 his occupation was a shoe maker.
I can't make out his occupation in the 1901 Census but he could have been a farmer as well as a shoe maker.    Can't trace him in the 1911 Census at the farm though.
Have you already come across this entry and discounted it?
The reason I ask is that Trallwyn overlooks the Carneddau Mountain range, also William's younger brother is called Hugh but that may just be a coincidence.

Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2014, 07:37:31 PM »
Hopefully, I can clarify a point.  There is some confusion with Llansantffraid Glan Conwy and Eglwys Rhos parishes but it is not that the names changed.  The Census Return of 1881 is for Eglwys Rhos, not Llansantffraid Glan Conwy.  If you look  at the other properties listed on the page, they include Llanrhos Post Office, the Mostyn Arms (now the Links Hotel) and the Queen's Head (a long demolished pub situated next to Llanrhos Church).  Therefore, I believe "Lower Brickfield" to be the cottage which was situated roughly where Maenan Road joins Conway Road (now Llandudno). 




Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2014, 11:20:24 PM »
I think you are correct with the location of Llanrhos (Eglwys-Rhos) and the address of lower Brick field is somewhere in that area but the Census records of 1881 show a William Davies  aged 5 and gives the place where born as Llansanffraid Glan Conwy so although the address is not in Glan Conwy the form does say that he was born there.

The other William Davies that I found today did live in Glan Conwy and at the age of 16 was a shoe maker according to the 1891 Census,  If it's complicated for us with all these names and addresses just imagine what it's like for Hugh so far away.

The strange thing I found out with the latest Willian Davies find was that the Census was recorded in Caernarfonshire and William lived in Denbighshire but the District was Creuddyn.   I never realised that Creuddyn also dealt with Glan Conwy before.

So at present there are two William Davies' who were shoe makers and born in Glan Conwy. One born in 1875 and one in 1876 it's a difficult one for Hugh who will have to consider all the facts available to him

Cambrian

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2014, 09:00:14 AM »
Hugo - this may be a shot in the dark or wild speculation.  In the 1891 Census, there should be a Mr & Mrs Wynne living at what was then called Brickfield Cottage.  Mrs Wynne was originally Davies and hailed from Llandudno but had lived for a long period in Glan Conwy.  Could be some family connection on her side with one of the William Davies. (I know this from some other research I did some years ago). Perhaps she moved to Brickfield after her parents ??

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2014, 01:25:49 PM »
Thanks Cambrian, any local info you can supply is always very helpful.  What I wanted to do was to trace where William was born in Glan Conway so I have worked backwards on the Census records and have used Dorothy Davies' name to do the search.  This made it easier as there were only about 12 people of that name in the Caernarvonshire and Denbighshire Census records but only one that matched exactly.
This is what I found and I'll list each one separately:-

1871 Census shows Edward (Grandfather) and Margaret living at No1 Brickfields  Llanrhos       (they were also there in the 1881 Census)

1871  Census shows Dorothy aged 16 living and working as a servant for a Richard Williams who lived at Tyn Y Celyn  Trallwyn   Glan Conwy

1871  Census shows Edward ,  Margaret, Dorothy and the rest of the children living at Marl Bach  Llandudno Junction

It's a small world Cambrian because we have both tried to help someone else on the forum and under the heading of Pensarn Farm they wanted to trace their relative "Bell Rogerson"    However their was a Davies connection with Marl Bach there too.

It doesn't help to trace William's birth address but I now have my own theory but no evidence whatsoever to back it up.  This is what I think has happened.
Dorothy left the family home at Brickfields when she was about 16 and went to live and work in Trallwyn Glan Conway.   She must have met someone there and at the age of 20 she became pregnant and had the baby there.  ( I think the other Davies family at Trallwyn may have been related).    Sometime after the birth she moved back to the family home at Brickfield Llanrhos and then appeared on the 1881 Census with William