Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 43734 times)

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Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2014, 05:01:26 PM »
I was in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at a few records but couldn't find anything that may help with your search.

What I did first was to have a look at the Burial Indexes for Salem Baptist Church at Glan Conwy and the Baptist Church at Glanwydden but there was no record of William Davies' burial at either Cemetery.
Next, I had a look at the Street Indexes for Llandudno but this didn't help either as all the houses were numbered and not named.   I did look at an old map  (1800's)  of Llandudno and all the houses shown on it are still there today so 2 Fron Cottage is there but just needs locating.
I'll look next time at the 1906 Llandudno rates book which may help.
In the 1911 Street Index William is living at Ivy Dale  7 Alexandra Road and is a shoemaker.   There is also a William Davies living at 13 Alexandra Road and he is a Mason.   He must be the father of Arfon Davies and is not your William so I didn't look at the 1937 Llandudno Advertiser as I knew then that he wasn't your Grandfather.
In the 1914 Street Index  a Frank Collins a PO wireman was living at Ivy Dale 7 Alexandra Road so your William must have moved address by then.   There are a number of William Davies' listed in the 1914 Street Index but none of them had their occupation listed as a boot or shoe maker.
I then had a look at the Llandudno Baptism Records and looked from 1905 until 1927 but there are no entries for any of William's children.
I'm sorry Hugh but I'm having no luck with my searches and don't know what to suggest but I'll follow up the location of Fron Cottage and hope that I have more luck there.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2014, 08:26:46 PM »
Hugh,  I've done a few searches here and don't know why information is not appearing for me.    I've been thinking about it and am assuming   that you haven't had much contact with your family since you moved to Australia in 1955.
If my assumptions are correct you would have gone there under the £10.00 ticket but would have been old enough to remember details of your family in Wales.
I'm not wanting to know any personal details but any extra info could possibly help.
I take it your father didn't go to Australia with you as you would have gleamed the info from him?    If he died in this area then there may have been  an obituary notice in the local papers and sometimes these notices can supply names of relatives etc
I found out today that William had left 7 Alexandra Road by the time the 1914 Street Index had been published so do you know for a fact that William was still living in Llandudno after 1914?
The reason I ask is that you know that Catherine was living in Penygroes in 1929 but at the time William would only have been about 53 so he may well have been still alive and living there with her.   In which case we would be looking in the wrong area and the Gwynedd Archives in Caernarfon is where some records will be.
I take it that you were born in Llandudno so any address that you or your father lived at may help and was Hugh Davies your father's full name or did he have another first name?

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #47 on: December 11, 2014, 07:29:39 AM »
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Hugh,  I've done a few searches here and don't know why information is not appearing for me.    I've been thinking about it and am assuming   that you haven't had much contact with your family since you moved to Australia in 1955.
If my assumptions are correct you would have gone there under the £10.00 ticket but would have been old enough to remember details of your family in Wales.

Hi Hugo,

Sorry. I realise I have not put things together in any sort of logical order so I hope the following clears things up (all names are the full names as far as I am aware of):

I (Hugh Davies) was born in Glasgow in 1/9/1950. My father, Hugh Davies (b.2/9/1907) was born in Llandudno and married my mother Agnes McLeod Cowan (b 3/4/1921) in Glasgow on 18/10/1944. Dad was in the Merchant Navy during the war years (but only one record could be found to support this). Mum and dad had three sons William, John and Hugh (me), whilst living in Glasgow, and around 1954, dad made application to immigrate to Australia Ė eventually accepted, and we moved to Australia in 1955. 

Mum was a very naÔve young woman when she got married and it appears she never really enquired into dadís family, so she is not a reliable source of knowledge (now 93).  Some of the snippets of my motherís memories include dad working in a slate quarry as a young man. Before coming to Australia in 1955, we all visited our Welsh grandmother and other relatives in PenyGroes.  I remember my father in tears some time before 1968, and Iím fairly certain that he had just received word that his mother had passed away.  Other memories include dad and another crewman being expelled at a port during the war because they have saved their Ďrum rationsí for some time and then had a party. The ship was subsequently torpedoed and sunk with all hands. Dad had lost the Ďpointerí finger of his right hand as a result of an infection. Dad passed away in 1970 when I was 20. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, we never had general discussions with dad about his life history, and hence the vacuum of knowledge.

Dadís parents were William Davies (b.~1876) and Catherine Jones (b. ~1885) who married in 1905 in Llandudno. William and Catherine had Edward ~ 1906, Richard ~1908 and Hugh (my father) in 1909.  I think there were two other siblings which followed dad, one was known as Bonzo or Gonzo, and the other his sister who calls herself Jinw pronounced ĎJeannieí.  I read a letter sent from dadís brother Richard sent after the death of my father wherein Richard talks about the fondness both he and my father 'Hughie' had for the mountains they could see from their doorstep when they were school kids. He also mentioned the frequent trips up to the mountains to see their uncle ďBwffĒ and mentioned being born in his grandmotherís cottage up on the mountains. Was the Ďfrontí door somewhere in Llandudno or somewhere in PenyGroes I do not know. Was the grandmother the paternal or maternal grandmother, I do not know. I do know that William, Catherine and my dad were living in PennyGroes in 1929. I am now assuming William was still alive as there was no mention of being deceased on the document.

So, the challenges have been Ė no mention of a Father on Williamís marriage certificate; no results using a search of BMD using Bonzo or Gonzo as a name for dadís sibling; no results when using Jinw as his sisterís name; and no hit was found for any Census using the first name of Bwff.

In the mid 60ís dadís brother Edward had a son Gwyndaf who was a cook on a merchant vessel which would dock here in Brisbane from time to time.  Dad would spend a lot of time with Gwyndaf during these visits mostly speaking Welsh, so the rest of us were oblivious to what stories were being told.  Gwyndaf retired in Pwhlleli where his parents lived. I did a search of a Gwyndaf Davies for Electrol records and found a Gwyndaf Davies who is around 65 (would be the correct age) and has been living there since 2002.  I will send a letter to him to see if he is THE Gwyndaf. If so, it should open a huge window of information.

One of the key bits of information I need to find (if possible), is when did William, Catherine and their children leave Llandudno.  Dadís brother Richie talked about the mountains they could see from his motherís doorstep when they were young children going to school. Again, were they going to school in Llandudno or in PennyGroes.

Sorry for being a bit vague on the details, but hopefully the above has put the details in some sort of order. I am still awaiting the copies of the birth certificates for William Davies and keeping my fingers crossed. Once again my sincere thanks for all you have done.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #48 on: December 11, 2014, 12:12:08 PM »
Thanks very much Hugh for going to all the time and trouble with your reply.  It explains a lot and especially why I have had no luck tracing your Llandudno connections.
I had a look at the 1911 Street index and saw Williams name but  not in the 1914 Street Index nor any of the four other indexes I looked at.
Now that you've supplied the extra info my opinion, although I have no proof, is that William moved to Penygroes after 1911 but before 1914 and the mountains that Hugh saw from the front are the Snowdonia mountains and he would have seen them from Penygroes.
In those days Penygroes was a mainly Welsh speaking community and the main occupations were in the various slate quarries around that area.
I think your search should be focused on Penygroes and I hope Gwyndaf can supply you with the missing links.   I know how you feel as I wish that I'd have asked questions at the time but didn't and now I have dozens of photos of my ancestors but cannot put names to them
I put "Penygroes History" into Google and had a look at Penygroes-Nantlle.com and it shows photos of Penygroes in the early days which you may find of interest.  One in particular is of the County School pupils there in 1922 and your father may have been in the school at that time
Another site which may help is "Carnarvon Traders"    (that's how it is spelt on Google)     Caernarfon is the main town in that area and there is a lot of info to be found on the site.
The Archive Office dealing with Penygroes is     archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk   and if you put into Google "Gwynedd Archives online"   there may be stuff there that can help you.
I hope that you find the info that you are looking for and can make contact with Gwyndaf and obtain addresses etc in Penygroes but in the meantime I'll follow up the location of Fron Cottage in Cwlach Street.    This photo is of the cottages that I now think is where your father was born but it'll be interesting to see which one it was.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #49 on: December 11, 2014, 06:36:20 PM »
Hugh,  I was back in the Archives at Llandudno again and had a look through the 1906 rates book (all 209 pages) but I'm afraid that I can't find Fron Cottages in the book.
I also looked at the 1911 Street Index which strangely doesn't have a Cwlach Street listed (it does have Cwlach Road but no Fron Cottage)
I did look through every street in that particular area but again had no luck.
One guy in the Archives that I spoke to has a friend who lived in Cwlach Street many years ago and he will ask him for me if he know which house is Fron Cottage.
I'm not holding much hope on this Hugh but if I do then I'll post what I find on here.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2014, 04:02:30 PM »
Just to put you in the picture Hugh, the name "Fron"  or "Bron" is the Welsh word for breast (of a hill) and it's quite appropriate for Cwlach Street because of its location.
Cwlach Street isn't a big street as such and there aren't many houses there but tracing your father's address isn't as easy as I thought that it would be.
All the houses are now numbered but in the mid 1800's there were houses there called  Pen Y Fron,   Frondeg,   Tan Y Fron and   Tai'nyfron  (sometimes called Y Fron) all in that small street.
What I need is irrefutable evidence where William Davies lived in the street and I'm hoping that there is a Rates Book for 1909 at the Archives and as William was living there then, it will show me this and then I can work out where the property is in relation to it's modern day number.
Unfortunately now, I won't be able to call in to the Archives until early January but I will look again and update you on here

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2014, 11:04:27 AM »
Hugh,  do you have any addresses in Penygroes for your relations?      That would help with some records such as the Register of Electors and possibly Baptism records etc. and then you could e-mail the Gwynedd Archives who may be able to help.
I've been looking on line at Penygroes but up to 2005 they had no Burial Indexes there although that may have changed since.  Those indexes in Conwy Archives record inscriptions from headstones but also list the people alphabetically and it is a good help.
I must admit that I've never heard of anyone in Wales called Gonzo or Bonzo ,  Jinw or Bwff  so perhaps they are just family "pet names"  for the people concerned.



Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #52 on: December 14, 2014, 01:15:27 PM »
Hugh,   I've sent an e-mail to the Gwynedd Archives at Caernarfon        archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk                                                  asking whether they hold the Burial Indexes for Penygroes and I've also asked them if they have the Register of Electors for the years near 1930 as William,  Catherine and Hugh should be on them then.
When I receive a reply I'll post it on here but it'll be after next Saturday as I'll be off line from today.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #53 on: December 15, 2014, 02:38:42 AM »
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Hugh,  do you have any addresses in Penygroes for your relations?      That would help with some records such as the Register of Electors and possibly Baptism records etc. and then you could e-mail the Gwynedd Archives who may be able to help.
I've been looking on line at Penygroes but up to 2005 they had no Burial Indexes there although that may have changed since.  Those indexes in Conwy Archives record inscriptions from headstones but also list the people alphabetically and it is a good help.
I must admit that I've never heard of anyone in Wales called Gonzo or Bonzo ,  Jinw or Bwff  so perhaps they are just family "pet names"  for the people concerned.

Hi Hugo. The address I have on a document dated September 1929 shows their address as 2 Tre Ddafydd, Penygroes. I also recall seeing a document giving his mother's name as next of kin around the start of WWII using the same address. I talked to my brother last night who is sure than dad's brother Richard was known as Bonzo. His sister was known as 'Gino' but spells her name as Jinw. As for Bwff, I have no idea. Is their any Welsh language constructs that would give me a clue as to the English translation of Bwff? Once again, thank you for your help.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #54 on: December 15, 2014, 08:13:23 AM »
That's all good stuff Hugh and very positive as 2 Tre Ddafydd is a terraced house that is still there.   It will give us a positive start to work on the Penygroes part of the family.
I'll have a look at your latest posting next weekend as I won't be back on the computer until then

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #55 on: December 19, 2014, 01:43:27 PM »
If you recall, I sent away for four Birth Certificates for William Davies. Alas, they all show a father's name, so I will trace them forward to see where that leads me. 

The one huge anomaly however is that two of the William Davies entries in the Birth Register had identical Folio and Page numbers.  These two certificates highlight the startling qualities of one Eleanor Davies formerly Roberts, who was apparently able to conduct a marriage with both a John Davies in Jenkin Street Abergele as well as an Evan Davies in Market Place Abergele at the same time. Not only did she seem to be able to do this seemingly impossible task, she miraculously was able to give birth to a William Davies fathered by Evan Davies in August 1876 and then give birth to a second baby, also named William Davies but fathered by John Davies in September 1986. Or... the records could be incorrect.

The certificate naming Evan Davies as the father lists the Informant as Evan, and is supported by an 1881 Census record showing a W E Davies as the son and a William Roberts as the Father-In-Law. The certificate naming John Davies as the father lists the Informant as Eleanor Davies, but I could not find any Census Records to support this certificate.  What does all this mean? Which certificate is incomplete/incorrect? I am inclined to think that the name of the informant would more likely to be an accurate inscription than the other details. This would seem to lend credence to the certificate naming John Davies as the father, but I cannot find any supporting census records for this certificate unlike the certificate naming Evan Davies as the informant.

I have sent a letter to a Gwyndaf Davies in Pwllheli but do not expect any reply until the New Year. Given the comments by my father's brother Richard, I should try to get a copy of his birth certificate if he was born in his 'Grandmother's cottage'.  Feeling extremely frustrated with the lack of positive results and the seemingly endless challenges of record anomalies and spelling of names.

Time to take a big breath and enjoy the festive season.  Best wishes to all!

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2014, 08:15:51 AM »
It's frustrating for you at the moment but hopefully you'll get a lucky break in the New Year and perhaps a positive reply from Gwyndaf.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2014, 08:37:45 AM »
I sent an e-mail to Gwynedd Archives and asked about a burial index for Penygroes in Gwynedd and also about the Register of Electors for 1930 and this is the reply I have received:-

Dear Sir

If you are looking for church burial records, you can look at our online catalogue for the Llanllyfni parish records (in which Penygroes is situated) :
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If you are looking for chapel burial records, unfortunately these prove to be very scarce.
Additionally, we also have the 1930 electoral register for Caernarfonshire.
There is access to some parish register entries online at ancestry.co.uk (I believe there are some entries for Caernarfonshire included).  However, the electoral registers have not been digitised therefore you would need to visit our archive office in person to access these (or to see the original church registers or any kind of documents associated with chapels).  If it is not possible to visit our office in person, then any research would have to be conducted by our researcher (which does involve a fee) - I have attached a copy of the relevant form to this email which contains full details of this service.

GILES MAURICE

CYMHORTHYDD ARCHIFAU / ARCHIVE ASSISTANT

archifau.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk

archives.caernarfon@gwynedd.gov.uk

I've copied the application for a research and will post it on here asap


Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #58 on: December 21, 2014, 09:18:30 AM »
Hugh,  I've copied the letters requesting a research in case you want to use it but would suggest that you don't do it straight away as I feel that you haven't got any conclusive info at present for them to go on.
What I would suggest you do, is to do something I did some time ago (incidently that was for a Hugh Davies but no relation of yours)
Send an e-mail to the Caernarfon Archives and tell them that you are searching for your relatives but live in Australia and ask them " if they can tell you the names of all the people listed on the 1930 voters list who were living at 2 Tre Ddafydd in Penygroes"
When you receive their reply you can decide on what you want to do next.

I have had a look at the link they supplied but to be honest I am not very good at navigating my way around these sites and so I found nothing.  Hope that you have some better luck

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2014, 05:48:33 AM »
Quote
I then looked at the Birth records in Denbighshire for 1876, only to find that there was no records listing Llansaintffraid Glan Conway but showing 10 entries for Wrexham, 1 entry for Llanwrst and 4 entries for St Asaph.  Does anyone have any suggestions? Even if the William Davies shown in the 1901 Census and the 1881 Census is not my grandfather, shouldn't there be a birth record for this person? Even extending the search to 1878 +/- 1 year does not reveal anything different except for one record for Ruthin and one for Minera.

Hugh, that is what I found out too but unfortunately the Birth certificates you ordered have not given you the info you are looking for.  The registration district for Glan Conwy has been St Asaph.  You can discount Wrexham completely but I'm now puzzled about the Llanrwst Registry.    In my lifetime I can never remember Llanrwst being the registration district for Glan Conwy but I've been wondering about it since.   
Llanrwst is just over 10 miles from Glan Conwy whereas St Asaph is just over 17 miles away and I was wondering whether Llanrwst was the registration district at the time your Grandfather was born.
DaveR even got an address for him in Glan Conwy so it might be worth looking into that one entry for Llanrwst
« Last Edit: December 26, 2014, 07:44:38 AM by Ian »