Daviies Family

[Hugo]

You have been really busy Hugh and at the moment I haven't got any suggestions to help you unfortunately but will try and think about it.

You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.

[DownUnder]

You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.

Hi Hugo,

I must admit, I have become very confused over the variations in town names. For example, the original image of the 1861 Census showing Elizabeth Davies at Marl Bach shows "Denbighshire EglwysRhos" in the Where Born column. Glan Conwy is also known as Llansanffraid and also known as Denbigh even though on a map Denbigh an Llansanffraid seem very far apart. Eglwys Rhos is also known as Llanrhos.

So I am wondering what other possible names Eglwys Rhos could be known as on the Census records? I will revisit the 56 records located in the 1871 Census and have a closer look at the birth towns looking for Llanrhos and any other suggestions forthcoming.

[Hugo]

You have tracked two Elizabeths than may meet the criteria but the only thing to unlink them from William Davies, the grandson of Edward Davies is the fact that I found Elizabeth Davies in the 1861 Census when she was living with her parents at Marl Bach.
Elizabeth was born about 1858 but her birth place was given as Eglwys Rhos in Caernarvonshire.

Eglwys Rhos  was the name of a Parish that included a number of areas all of which are in Caernarfonshire.     For Census records though Llansanffraid Glan Conwy which was in Denbighshire was included in the Conwy Registration District

We can't even look at the Register of Electors for the 1870's as the women were not included as the didn't have the vote until the 1920's

I can't think of any other searches at the moment as I've tried the Census records for Caernarvonshire, Denbighshire and even Flintshire but nothing has come up.   Perhaps others on here may have some more ideas.

Hi Hugo,

I must admit, I have become very confused over the variations in town names. For example, the original image of the 1861 Census showing Elizabeth Davies at Marl Bach shows "Denbighshire EglwysRhos" in the Where Born column. Glan Conwy is also known as Llansanffraid and also known as Denbigh even though on a map Denbigh an Llansanffraid seem very far apart. Eglwys Rhos is also known as Llanrhos.

So I am wondering what other possible names Eglwys Rhos could be known as on the Census records? I will revisit the 56 records located in the 1871 Census and have a closer look at the birth towns looking for Llanrhos and any other suggestions forthcoming.

I can understand your confusion regarding the names of places, it's easy for us because we were born in the area but I'll try and explain it as best as I can,

Firstly,  Llansanffraid Glan Conwy,  is sometimes shown in the Census as Llansanffraid,  It can also be shown just as Glan Conwy.   Nowadays it is more commonly known just as Glan Conwy.      In the days of the Census that we are able to see up to 1911,  it was in the County of Denbighshire.   If you have seen it on the Census shown as Llansanffraid   Denbigh  then this is incorrect and it should have read Llansanffraid  Denbighshire.

Look again at the Census records for 1861 and you'll see at the top right hand corner of the form  " the undermentioned houses are situated within the Boundaries of the Parish of Eglwysrhos"
If you look below that for Marl Bach and  see across the page at "Where born"  you will see  Denbighshire Eglwysbach and that is correct for Edward Davis and Margaret Davies.
However the entries for every one in the family below the parents are incorrect.   Llandudno and the Parish of Eglwysrhos are both in Caernarvonshire.
This happens on Census forms and you can't always take them as gospel as they have only been copied on to the form you see by a clerk and in those two cases you have quoted they both contain human errors.
We have the advantage here of our local knowledge on the area.

Eglwysrhos was a parish that contained a number of areas such as parts of Llandudno, Llanrhos, Tywyn, Deganwy and what is now Llandudno Junction but for Census purposes I've only seen Eglwysrhos mentioned. 

If only the Birth Certificate had mentioned where Elizabeth was born could have made the search a lot easier.    The Elizabeth it may be is in the 1861 Census living at Marl Bach but she was born in Eglwysrhos  Caernarvonshire

[DownUnder]

I can understand your confusion regarding the names of places, it's easy for us because we were born in the area but I'll try and explain it as best as I can,

Thanks Hugo.  We have been on a short break and also have a new granddaughter. So have only just started to get back into things.  I have found an Elizabeth Davies in the 1871 Census who is listed as being born in "Conway, N' Wales". Would this be a possible match for Eglwys Rhos?  I cannot find any other potential match.

I will probably start chasing the Grand Parents Edward and Margaret back in time in the meantime.

[Hugo]

Firstly, congratulations on the birth of your Granddaughter and I hope that mother and daughter are doing well.      That's a good excuse for a barbie and a few beers!      Z**

Conway was not part of the Parish of Eglwysrhos.   The Elizabeth that you have found may be the same Elizabeth that we found in the 1881 Census.   That Elizabeth lived at 3 High Street Conway and was a boot shoe maker according to the 1881 Census.
What address did you find Elizabeth living at in the 1871 Census?

[Hugo]

Hugh,   I've just been looking at my print out for the 1881 Census concerning the Davies family from 3 High Street Conway.     The family were boot shoe makers as you have found out already.
William Davies was the Head of the household and he has a daughter called Elizabeth whose age at the Census date was 24.    Under her name it looks like William with an initial after the name but I can't make it out.
William the Grand child's age is given as 7 and the birthplace was Conway but that doesn't tie in with  the birth certificate for William who was born in Nov 1875 at Llansanffraid.
It remains a mystery for now anyway

[DownUnder]

Hugh,   I've just been looking at my print out for the 1881 Census concerning the Davies family from 3 High Street Conway.     The family were boot shoe makers as you have found out already.
William Davies was the Head of the household and he has a daughter called Elizabeth whose age at the Census date was 24.    Under her name it looks like William with an initial after the name but I can't make it out.
William the Grand child's age is given as 7 and the birthplace was Conway but that doesn't tie in with  the birth certificate for William who was born in Nov 1875 at Llansanffraid.
It remains a mystery for now anyway

It was a William T Davies. Refer to Reply #94 on Page 7:

Okay, I am now more confused than ever. The North Wales BMD reference I found for a William Taliesin Davies (which I thought matches the William T Davies in the 1881 Census) has a reference of CONWY/08/72 (b.1874). The reference you have provided CREUDDYN/17/65 refers to a William Davies born in 1875. Will have another review of all of this.

Next time you are at the archives would you be able to check if the William with reference of CONWY/08/72 has a father listed or not - but only if this is not inconvenient or difficult.  The absence of a matching Elizabeth Davies born in Eglwys Rhos in the 1881 Census could be a result of a marriage or her death, but I cannot understand the absence of a match in the 1871 census which was 4 years before she gave birth to William and would still have Davies as her surname. Oh well, back to research.

[Hugo]

I called at the Archives today but unfortunately they cannot say whether a father was listed from those reference numbers.   The Birth Certificates and Baptism records would say if a father was named.

In the case of the Birth Certificate recently received for William, the father was not listed.    I believe that you were on the right track all along with the 1881 Census at Brickfields.      The year of birth,  place of birth on the 1881 Census all agree with the birth certificate and there was a daughter called Elizabeth of the right age to be William's mother.

I had a look at the burial indexes for Llanrhos  (Eglwysrhos) and Llansanffraid to see if Elizabeth was buried there as she may even have died in childbirth or prior to 1881 but there was no record of her burial at these Cemeteries.

[Cambrian]

Another possibility is that Elizabeth subsequently married and had a different surname in later Censuses.

[Hugo]

It's more likely that that happened Cambrian,  we know the year ( +1)  and the place where Elizabeth was born so it's possible to find out when she got married.

[Hugo]

Hugh,  we seem to be stuck on finding William in the 1991 Census and also Elizabeth so do you have any other addresses in Wales for your relatives?
You did mention Betws Y Coed earlier and the fact that your father worked in the quarries.      Penygroes is in an area where slate quarrying was a big employer in those days but there were many quarries all over North Wales.   Some were slate quarries and others stone depending of course on the location.
Have you had a reply from Gwyndaf, if not it might be ok to give him a reminder?

[DownUnder]

Hugh,  we seem to be stuck on finding William in the 1991 Census and also Elizabeth so do you have any other addresses in Wales for your relatives?
You did mention Betws Y Coed earlier and the fact that your father worked in the quarries.      Penygroes is in an area where slate quarrying was a big employer in those days but there were many quarries all over North Wales.   Some were slate quarries and others stone depending of course on the location.
Have you had a reply from Gwyndaf, if not it might be ok to give him a reminder?

I mentioned in earlier posts that the 1911 Census shows William and Catherine Davies living in Llandudno with three children - Edward, Richard and Hugh (my father). After my father's death his brother Richard sent a letter to my mother in which he said that he "loved the mountains he could see from his family's front door and in fact had been born in those mountains in his grandmother's cottage."  As mentioned, I'm not sure where the family's front door was in his memories, but would either be somewhere in Llandudno or in Penygroes. A search for Richard Davies showed possible records for Betws Y Coed and Colwyn Bay, both in Conwy Count Borough (Llandudno).  It would seem that the Bets Y Coed seems to be the most mountainous of the two.  This is where the mention of Betws Y Coed was raised.  I think a copy of Richards birth certificate could be very enlightening.

In the interim, I have used a filter for the 1891 Census for a William Davies (variants on both first name and surname), having a Birth County of either Denbighshire or Caernarvonshire and a Birth Year of 1885 +-2yrs. This has returned 94 matches. I have put together a table of these matches and appended the relationship of the match to the head of the household and the Birth Town of the match. I have attached this in the hope that someone can identify potential matches for my grandfather William Davies.

I will go through this list myself and post my suggestions. But others with more knowledge of town, counties, parishes etc. may have other suggestions.

Regards to all

[Hugo]

Hugh,  I have checked every entry and the only one it can be is No 25.     That ticks all the known boxes but does throw up something else.
The reasons I think it is No 25 are listed below:-
 
Full name                   William Davies       ( that's shown on the birth certificate)
Birth year                   1875                    (      ditto   )                                   
Birth County               Denbighshire     ( Llansanffraid was in Denbighshire )
Registration District     Conway            ( births for Llansanffraid had to be registered in Conway)
Parish                          Llansanffraid Glan Conway        (  that was the parish where William was born )
County                        Caernarvonshire                 ( that was the county for Conway the Registration District )
Birth town                   Llansanffraid                       ( that was the town where William was born )

Now every column ticks the boxes but no other entry comes anywhere near it.

There is another column for relationship and this shows "son William Widower"      Now I have no proof of this but my theory is that "William Widower"  is your William's father but it does not state William Snr's surname, but as he was a widower and not married to Elizabeth this would make William Jnr illegitimate and that also ties in with the birth certificate that you have.    This then ticks all the boxes on the form

[Cambrian]

Yes- just been studying the list.  I agree with Hugo.  That seems to be the only logical explanation.  There is a view of the mountains (Tal y Fan etc) from the houses along Llanrwst Road in Glan  Conwy which might explain the reference to William's memory of them.

[Hugo]

This is the present day view from the A470 main road where Sea View Terrace is, the Carneddau mountains are across the river