Author Topic: Daviies Family  (Read 45835 times)

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DownUnder

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Daviies Family
« on: November 12, 2014, 03:24:45 AM »
A warm hello from DownUnder living 'down under' (Brisbane).

My father, Hugh Davies (whom I was named after) was born in Llandudno in 1909. His parents were William Davies and Catherine Jones. William was listed as a Boot Maker on the birth certificate. William and Catherine were married in the Register Office in Conway 19/9/1905. The 1911 Census shows them (including my father's siblings Edward (5) and Richard (3) living in 7 Alexandra Road Llandudno.

That is about the extent of the 'facts' I know.  I suspect that William Davies died sometime prior to WWII as Catherine was living on her own in Pennygroes at that time. Other challenges include the absence of a father's name and occupation on William's marriage certificate.

I have some specific questions to help me gain more information about my Welsh grandparents:

1. Is there an on-line newspaper/obituary notice database available for the period 1914 to 1939? This may help me find a record of William's death.

2. I read with interest DaveR's Llandudno Traders in 1901 posting in which he mentions the existence of 6 Boot Makers. Are there any records available which would list the staff of those traders?

3. I think there was another two sons and one daughter born to William and Catherine after 1911. Can anyone suggest a way of finding out details of those births (ie names and dates of birth).

4. Given the absence of a Father's name on William's Marriage Certificate, I have to assume the worst case scenario that he was illegitimate (worst case only in that it makes things extremely difficult in tracing my ancestors). A couple of ideas have sprung to mind, but would be very grateful for any other suggestions.

>> I believe the general 'naming' convention for children born in that era was the first son was named after the father's father, the second son named after the mother's father (not sure about naming further sons). In this case, the eldest son was Edward and the second son Richard - the name of Catherine's father. I know its a very dubious clue to go on, but you never know.

>> The Marriage Certificate lists the witnesses as John Owen Davies, Margaret Davies, and William Owen.  Does anyone know what the norm was in 1905 relating to witnesses? Were they generally friends, relatives, other parties, all of the above.

>> William was born in Denbigh in ~1876. If I was to look at the census for 1881 for a William Davies born in Denbigh where the occupants did not list a father, I could perhaps track the birth details and order copies  to see what it would tell me.


5. Dad (Hugh) was born in 2 Fron Cottages Cwlach Street Llandudno (1909), William was living at Penmaen View, Caroline St Llandudno (1905) and Catherine Jones was living at Rodonal House, Trinity Street Llandudno (1905). Are these buildings still there? If so, are there any online photos I can view.

Sorry for the long-winded post, but my family moved to Australia in 1955, have no other relatives here, and have had no contact with dad's side of the family since shortly after his death in 1970.  As you can imagine, trying to trace a family tree in wales with Davies and Jones as the surnames has been frustrating enough, but to find out that I am unlikely to trace my ancestry past my grandfather William is a new level of frustration.

If any of you have any queries re Australian records I will be glad to help out where I can.

Regards to all,  Hugh Davies

SteveH

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2014, 09:56:54 AM »
Hi Hugh,   Welcome ....I found this link yesterday, looks like it is only available for one week, long shot but give it a try.... $

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suepp

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #2 on: November 12, 2014, 12:43:39 PM »
Hi, It's so difficult with the common welsh names. Welsh Parish records are largely unavailable online. What was your fathers occupation? I have a 1929 street directory containing several Hugh and William Davies, nothing under Boot makers though. The Llandudno Archives may be able to help you and a member on here Hugo may be willing to look up an obituary there  as he often very kindly does this in response to queries on here

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #3 on: November 12, 2014, 02:25:52 PM »
Hi Hugh, welcome to the forum.  The best scenario would be if one of the Davies family living locally could see your request and supply the info you want.
In answer to your questions:-
1)   There was a newspaper called the Llandudno Advertiser that had obituary notices in them relating to Llandudno people.  The North Wales Weekly News was another paper ( more widespread distribution)   Copies of both these weekly newspapers can be found in the Conwy Archives in Llandudno.   I don't think that they are on line but cannot be certain of that.
2)   I don't know the answer but perhaps Dave does
3)   A possibility with the Baptism Records as most people were Baptised in those days, but again the records are in the Atchives at Llandudno and I don't think that they are on line.
4)   I don't think that there were any hard and fast rules on naming children or on who you had as a witness, I think that that was up to the individuals.
You could try the Birth Certificate but there may be many with that name so you would have to be certain of the person before you applied for a costly certificate.
Another option would be to see the Baptism Records but Denbigh's records are in another Archive and I'm not certain which one ( may be Clwyd Archives}
5)  As far as I'm aware all three properties are still there although I can't be positive about Fron Cottage.   The other two properties may have changed their names in the intervening years but I don't know if an on line photo exists of the properties.
I can however help you with this and will take some photos and post them on here.

I do go to the Archives in Llandudno and they have Burial Indexes there.   They cover all the Cemeteries in the Conwy County area and list all the graves with headstones.   The Burial Indexes are also listed alphabetically and this makes it easy to search for anyone's grave.  In fact it may be a quicker way of finding out when William died and it would then  be easier to search for the obituary notice in the paper.

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DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #4 on: November 12, 2014, 10:48:30 PM »
Thank you for collective suggestions, I will follow them up where I can.

I am grateful for your offer of taking some photos 'ugo - could you also let me know the street numbers of the Caroline and Trinity street properties.

suepp - I did find a document last night which listed dad's mother's address in 1929 as in Pennygroes. So they must have moved from Llandudno prior to 1929.

SteveH - I will have a good look at the link you provided and hopefully find something.

Regards

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2014, 11:02:00 PM »
I'll go to the Archives and check the Street Indexes and then take some photos.   While I am there I'll check on the Burial Indexes for Llandudno and see where we can go from there.
It might be next week though before I can go to the Archives.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2014, 01:52:26 AM »
Thanks once again Hugo for going to those efforts on my behalf $thanx$



DaveR

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2014, 08:59:00 AM »
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2. I read with interest DaveR's Llandudno Traders in 1901 posting in which he mentions the existence of 6 Boot Makers. Are there any records available which would list the staff of those traders?
I don't think so, I'm afraid.

Funnily enough, I'm researching my family tree at the moment and there are a lot of Davies and Roberts in it, along with Millward and Myddleton. As Sue says, its so difficult with the common Welsh surnames.

Best of luck with it, anyway.  $  $good$

DaveR

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2014, 09:34:25 AM »
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>> William was born in Denbigh in ~1876. If I was to look at the census for 1881 for a William Davies born in Denbigh where the occupants did not list a father, I could perhaps track the birth details and order copies  to see what it would tell me.
Just had a look at the 1911 Census. It lists William Davies as being born in Denbighshire (the County), rather than Denbigh (the town). That's an important distinction and also one that makes it far harder to track him down, unfortunately! Most Census forms will list the village/town/county, which is far more useful. Having said that, there are only 16 William Davies, born in Denbighshire in 1876, so that may be a start. Best of luck, you have a difficult job on your hands.  $

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2014, 12:56:47 PM »
How did you get it down to 16 Dave?    I've tried Roots.uk and there are 127 of William Davies and hundreds more variants.
Hugh's going to need a bit of luck with this one but we'll see what we can all do to help.

DaveR

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2014, 04:08:00 PM »
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How did you get it down to 16 Dave?    I've tried Roots.uk and there are 127 of William Davies and hundreds more variants.
Hugh's going to need a bit of luck with this one but we'll see what we can all do to help.
I used Ancestry and 16 William Davies, born in Denbighshire in 1876, popped up in the search for the 1881 census

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2014, 10:35:11 PM »
Thanks Dave,   I used Roots.uk and used William Davies born 1876 as the criteria to give me about 127 possibilities.   If William had a middle name then there are hundreds of others born in Denbighshire.   
Let's hope that I can see something in the Archives that may narrow it down.

DownUnder

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #12 on: November 15, 2014, 10:53:29 AM »
Hi Dave/Hugo,

I have a 1901 Census record of William Davies living as a boarder with Samuel T Davies and Maggie Davies in Lleweni, Caroline St Llandudno.  William's occupation is listed as 'Shoe Maker' and his birth place as 'Denbigh: Glan Conway'.  On the 1911 census, the 1901 census and William's marriage certificate there is no mention of a middle name.

Once again, thank you for your efforts $thanx$

DaveR

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #13 on: November 15, 2014, 03:45:23 PM »
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Hi Dave/Hugo,

I have a 1901 Census record of William Davies living as a boarder with Samuel T Davies and Maggie Davies in Lleweni, Caroline St Llandudno.  William's occupation is listed as 'Shoe Maker' and his birth place as 'Denbigh: Glan Conway'.  On the 1911 census, the 1901 census and William's marriage certificate there is no mention of a middle name.

Once again, thank you for your efforts $thanx$
Using the clue of a birthplace of Glan Conway, I found a William Davies, born in 1876, listed as Grandson, living at Lower Brick Field,  Glan Conway on the 1881 census. His grandparents were Edward & Margaret Davies, they had a daughter called Dorothy. William had a brother called Edward, age 17, living with him at their Grandparents.

Hugo

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Re: Daviies Family
« Reply #14 on: November 15, 2014, 05:09:44 PM »
Those are good finds Dave and DownUnder.    If the William Davies is Hugh's Grandfather and if William was illegitimate as Hugh thinks then it is possible that Dorothy (age not mentioned) could be William's mother.
The Baptism records may help but I'm not sure if Llansanffraid Glan Conwy's records are at the Conwy Archives.   Although Glan Conwy is now in the County of Conwy I know some of the Parish records are elsewhere.   I'll have a look when I'm there next.
Anyway, here's a photo taken today of 7 Alexandra Road Llandudno where William once lived. ( No 7 is the door on the right)