Freemasonry in Llandudno

[Yorkie]

Apart from Minstrels!   

[Fester]

  L0L

Ooops, sorry Yorkie, you said recently that you don't like it when people just add a laughing icon (or somesuch) to a post.
But I couldn't resist it this time,  that last reply cracked me up.

[Yorkie]

 

It's the way I tell 'em!   At least you added a few words!

[Fester]

Possibly not the right thread for my enquiry, but then again..... it might be.

My daughter recently bought a necklace / pendant at a table top sale.
Two pictures of it are attached below.
The style of it and the inscription intrigued her, and now me.

It bears the inscription;
CATH: B.V.M TRV-RON ECC:    which apparently says Blessed virgin Mary and Catholic Church.

Other Forums claim that there is a connection with The Knights Templar.

My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.

Does any Forum member recognise this article, or something similar?
Any information would be appreciated.

[DaveR]

My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.

I hope she had the gumption to take the money and run!

[dwsi]

Possibly not the right thread for my enquiry, but then again..... it might be.

My daughter recently bought a necklace / pendant at a table top sale.
Two pictures of it are attached below.
The style of it and the inscription intrigued her, and now me.

It bears the inscription;
CATH: B.V.M TRV-RON ECC:    which apparently says Blessed virgin Mary and Catholic Church.

Other Forums claim that there is a connection with The Knights Templar.

My daughter was astonished when out of the blue someone offered her £2000 for it on the spot.

Does any Forum member recognise this article, or something similar?
Any information would be appreciated.

http://bit.ly/HvJpw7

[Fester]

Thanks Dwsi,

A lot of conjecture on that forum.... but other than masonic connections, no definitive answer.

[Yorkie]

Personally I do not think it has anything to do with Freemasonry, particular;ly if it has Catholic connections.  See:

"The (Catholic) Church has prohibited its members from being Freemasons since In Eminenti Apostolatus in 1738. Since then, the Vatican has issued several papal bulls banning membership of Catholics from Freemasonry under threat of excommunication. Currently, as reiterated in 1983, Catholics who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion;[1] the penalty of excommunication is not declared in the current code of canon law, but membership remains forbidden.[2] The prohibition is often ignored by Catholic Masons who continue receiving the sacraments."

However, I am interested in what it may represent and will delve further.

I hope the £2000.00 was genuine!     ZXZ

[Yorkie]

The inscription is in slightly the wrong order - it is (I think)

ECC:CATH  = Eclesiastica Catholica  = Catholic Church

B.V.M = Blessed Virgin Mary

TRV-RON =  I cannot find any reference except that it may be something to do with Orders of Friars or Druids - e.g. Ordinis Fratrum Minorum.   I am intrigued and will continue looking but am surprised that there is no firm indication of what these letters signify.

[dwsi]

the cross is known as a cross patonce

A cross patonce is more or less intermediate between a cross pattée and a cross flory (or fleury). The ends of its limbs are trifurcated into leaf shapes, and seems to come in two sorts: one where the limbs are the same width all along as in the coat of Godfrey McCance Gransden ; and the other where the limbs gently widen from the centre (but do not curve) as in the coat of John Chiu  (both of Canada). A mediaeval example is shown on the seal of William de Fortibus(d.1260)

http://bit.ly/Hzizkj

[Fester]

Yorkie and Dwsi,  Thank you so much for taking the time to look into this.

I am most interested to learn more about it.

I have emailed the link to this topic to my daughter, so she can keep up to date on what is discovered.

[outlawowl]

Hi
This one takes me back to my school days. breviarium in latin means short or concise and BVM is a shorter way of writing it. It is used to refer to a concise book of prayers, hymns etc used by the Catholic faith......
So, BVM may not mean Blessed Virgin Mary.
Also, although the square cross (usually referred to a a Quadrate) is similiar to a Templar cross, these type of crosses have been in use by a number of organisations across history.
Thought to represent not the crucifiction cross but to represent apostles being sent to the four corners of the world.
Hopes this helps (or confuses even more)

[Yorkie]

You are quite correct that BVM could be interpreted as you say but I do not think it would used as such on the reverse of the token or medal depicted.   Most areas that I have researched so far are all translating BVM as Blessed Virgin Mary or Bless Virgin Mary which would make some sense.  Some also have an inscription CAP which is an abbreviation for Call a Priest.

I am no further with the TRV-RON - I think a call to the Boolean or Ashmolean Library in Oxford may assist with an answer.   

[Fester]

Curiouser and curiouser.... 

[Michael]

 >>>All I can say is that this someone mentioned by your daughter must well and truly know "something" that none of us do