Author Topic: John OWEN born 1821  (Read 17648 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2013, 11:27:28 AM »
The 1841 is in a different order to the 1851. You can see how the town has grown in the 10 years between these. In the 1841, the Great Orme is referred to as "The Upper Township". You can work out what is what in some instances by the dwellings and roads there today. I will have another look at the 1841 and see if I can find anything that matches Lwyn Helig.

I will stick my neck out and say that I think John Owen, father of John Owen baptised in November 1821, was from a dwelling by the name of Gogarth. The reason being that the register shows his mother to be of Lwyn Helig and that is a dwellling for sure. It looks to me as if the curate has shown their residences in the town, specific places, rather than general locations. Time alone may tell.

Helig (no relation  :D).

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2013, 11:53:43 AM »
Helig, you're hedging your bets there because there are five places in the Census called Gogarth!     ;D
They were on the western side of the Orme and at least one was a cave, that's Gogarth cave where Miriam and Isaac Jones lived but it could be the farm where Mary Owen lived as it was only a 26 acre property and if John Owen Snr lived there he would have had to supplement his income by mining.
Those two farms were separated by the water that runs from Ffynnon Gogarth and reappears at the start of Llys Helyg Drive.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2013, 12:08:24 PM »
I've just had a very nice and interesting chat with Tom Parry and Tom's knowledge of Llandudno is incredible.  He has information on Llwynhelig that is stored on a CD and is in Welsh but Tom has translated it. Unfortunately Tom's computer is playing up and he cannot access this but will endevour to do so.
I explained about what Jom is looking for and referred him to the Three Towns Forum to have a look at the various requests and postings and he will have a look at them.
When we were talking I mentioned John Williams of the Old Telegraph and he has an article somewhere of a statement from a person saying how welcoming John Williams was when the person visited the Old Telegraph. Tom has mislaid the article but will search for it as I mentioned that Jom would be interested in anything like that.
Tom was also one of the people along with Bob from the Archives who last cleared out the Cemetery at Ffolt Baptist Church and I told him how bad it was now after I went in and found the grave for Hugh Jones of Adwy Rhydd.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2013, 04:13:23 PM »
I was back in the Archives and looking at the Baptism and Burial records for Llandudno from the 1700's to 1812 and they are in a different format to the later indexes. The difference being that the earlier records do not have addresses for the Baptisms.
I could find no info for Ann Evans, but if she wasn't from Llandudno then she wouldn't have been on it.  I then looked at the Baptism records for John Owen Snr and the only record for him was as follows:-
Baptism Jan 23rd 1799   John Owens son of John Owens by Mary his wife

Now there is no proof that this is your relative but it is the only John Owen(s) shown on the records and the population of Llandudno at that time was 318 and in the Baptism records the name Owens reverted back to Owen as you can see below:-
Baptism  23rd Aug 1799        Owen              son to John Owen by Mary his wife
    "         18th Sept 1802      Thomas                         "
    "         1st March  1806     William                          "
    "         4th June 1808        Margaret         daughter to     "

Just as an add on to there was a record in the 1799 Burial Index which was:-
26th Oct  1799   for  Jane daughter of John Owen by Mary his wife.

If this is your family and I have no definite proof that it is there are three generations of John Owen living in Llandudno.

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2013, 04:46:06 PM »
I have rechecked the 1841 census and cannot find Llwyn Helig in this.

The Mary Owen at Gogarth in the 1841 has a household as follows:

Mary Owen, aged 70, Farmer, born in county.
Jane Owen, aged 40, Milliner, born in county.
John Owen, aged 20, Ag Lab, born in county.
Owen Owen, aged 15, Ag Lab, born in county.

Bear in mind that in this census, ages were rounded up, or down, to the nearest 5 years. The ages given are not exact and a rough idea of their true ages.  It appears to me that both John and Owen are both a bit young to be the children of Mary. I have tried to find their baptisms on Freereg but the only possible one for John is that as him being the son of John Owen and Ann Evans. There is nothing on this that fits for either Jane, or Owen.  I wondered if it would be possible to find the baptisms for these two, which might yield some clues. Also, to get the marriage for John Owen and Mary which would be in the 1790ish time.

I cannot remember how far back the trade and commercial directories go for Llandudno. These might also have information both on Llwyn Helig and the Owen family.

I remember reading about the ploughing matches between the farms on that side of the Great Orme. They were said to have raced round the two tall stones that now lie on the beach, some distance out too. We tend to forget that in those days, the shoreline was much further out than it is now. Would the Owen family in Gogarth Farm have particpated in these ploughing matches do you think?

These must have been some of the earliest families of, and residents in, the town of Llandudno.

I regret to say that I am some distance from the Conwy archives, so Hugo, any chance of these look ups please?


Helig.

jom

  • Member
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2013, 11:42:12 PM »
Well what can I say.  I just wish I was part of the searches.  It's all so exciting.  Thank you for passing on the excitement of the chase!

Can't wait for any tidbits, Hugo.  Please thank Tom for his interest

Helig, I looked at the OWEN family you found in the 1841 census.  I chased them on into the 1851 return to find Owen OWENS with his wife Elinor and Aunt Jane who would be of the right age

1851 Census HO107/2519 Page 14 Folio 168 Entry 55 Gogarth

Owen OWENS Head Married  29 Farmer bn Llandudno
Elinor OWENS Wife Married 20 Farmer's Wife bn Llandudno
Jane OWENS Aunt Unmarried 51 Dressmaker bn Llandudno
William DAVIES Serv Unmarried 24 General Servant bn Liverpool

So I assume this is the same crowd.  If so, and IF they are my clan, my John was married by then to Susannah JONES (They married 1849) and had already had a son by the name of ... you guessed it John (bn 1849).

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login
I was back in the Archives and looking at the Baptism and Burial records for Llandudno from the 1700's to 1812 and they are in a different format to the later indexes. The difference being that the earlier records do not have addresses for the Baptisms.
I could find no info for Ann Evans, but if she wasn't from Llandudno then she wouldn't have been on it.  I then looked at the Baptism records for John Owen Snr and the only record for him was as follows:-
Baptism Jan 23rd 1799   John Owens son of John Owens by Mary his wife

Now there is no proof that this is your relative but it is the only John Owen(s) shown on the records and the population of Llandudno at that time was 318 and in the Baptism records the name Owens reverted back to Owen as you can see below:-
Baptism  23rd Aug 1799        Owen              son to John Owen by Mary his wife
    "         18th Sept 1802      Thomas                         "
    "         1st March  1806     William                          "
    "         4th June 1808        Margaret         daughter to     "

Just as an add on to there was a record in the 1799 Burial Index which was:-
26th Oct  1799   for  Jane daughter of John Owen by Mary his wife.

If this is your family and I have no definite proof that it is there are three generations of John Owen living in Llandudno.

You can, I'm folk appreciate my delight having help with this gang.  Far too many Johns :laugh:

I have hand written notes emailed to me from a co researcher to suggest that John OWEN who married Mary with children as noted above Hugo, was a miner from Tyn y Coed.  Having looked at Google, I note it is on the Orme, is that right? 

My former contact believed this John and Mary were the parents of the Prince of Wales John OWEN who married Alice WILLIAMS.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #21 on: February 26, 2013, 10:07:01 AM »
Jom,  Tyn Y Coed is on the Great Orme and Tyn Y Coed was originally a small holding but there is also a road called Tyn Y Coed Road that has terraces of old cottages.

I'm not entirely convinced that the John and Mary were from Tyn Y Coed without ruling out the Gogarth Farm on the western side of the Orme.   Tom said that Mary's farm was also known as Gogarth Bach (Eng. small)  on account that it was the smaller of the two farms.
Her age in the Census also fits in with being a possible Grandmother to your John Baptised in 1821.



Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #22 on: February 26, 2013, 10:57:05 AM »
I have just read the latest developments with interest. I like a challenge!

Tyn y Coed Road is still there today. I love that area of the Orme and was very close to buying one of the cottages in Tyn y Coed Road some years ago. They were built for the miners of the Great Orme. I was told that they didn't know how old they are as the deeds went back to the 1760s but they were older than that. The garden with the cottage went up the back for about 100 yards on the Orme.

Anyway, I digress. I found a marriage in Conwy Registration District in the June qtr 1843, Owen Owens to Eleanor Jones. There is another marriage there in the June qtr 1849, Owen Owens to Ellen Jones. That looks the more likely of the two for your possible family. It might be worth getting the certificate to give you the names etc of their fathers.

The Owen Owens, aged 29 on the 1851 census looks to be the same person that was baptised by Owen Owen as an illegitimate son in 1821. Hugo posted the parish register entry for this and Owen was shown as of Gogarth too. Was Owen b1821 Mary's grandson?

The entry on the 1851 census suggests that Mary Owens died in between the 1841 and the 1851. I wonder if there was a will for her? I did try the Welsh Wills online site on the NLW but couldn't find anything. There are three deaths for a Mary Owen registered in Conwy in that period. In the December qtr 1842, Sept qtr 1845 and March qtr 1846.

In the 8161 census, Owen Owens is a Farmer of 21 acres, employing one man. This is at Gogarth Ucha, Llandudno. It reads:

Owen Owens, Head, Married, age 38, Farmer of 21 acres, employing one man, born Llandudno.
Elinor  Owens, wife, age 30, born Llandudno.
John Owens, son, age 11, born Llandudno.
Mary J Owens, daughter, age 9, born Llandudno.
Sarah Owens, daughter, age 6, born Llandudno.
Ann Owens, daughter, age 4, born Llandudno.
Jane Owens, servant, age 38, born Llandudno.

The 1871 is an odd one and reads:

Gogarth Farm, Llandudno.

Jane Owens, Head, age 78, Farming, born Llandudno
Owen Owens, nephew, age 49, Farm servant, born as above.
Eleanor Owens, niece, age 40, born as above.
John Owens, son age 21, plasterer, born as above.
Ann Owens, daughter, age 14, scholar, born as above.
John Jones, visitor, age 76, Tailor, born as above.

It is interesting to note that the next dwelling is shown as Gogarth, followed by "Cottage". In the Cottage are your family of John Owens, wife Susana (born Llangwstenin) and five children.

Helig.


Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #23 on: February 26, 2013, 11:13:41 AM »
1881 census:

Gogarth, Llandudno.

Ellen Owen, Head, widow, age 50, Farmer of 9 acres, born Llandudno.
John Owen, son, age 31, Plasterer, born Llandudno.
Sarah A Owen, age 36, daughter, Plasterer's wife, born Oswestry, Salop.
Mary E Owen, grandaughter, age 8, born Ruthin, Denbs.
Owen Owen, age 7, grandson, born Llandudno.
Thomas Owen, grandson, age 3, born Llandudno.
William Owen, aged 1, grandson, born Llandudno.
Sarah Owen, aged 4, grandaughter, born Llandudno.

So both Owen Owen and Jane Owen died in the intervening period 1871-1881.

in 1891 Ellen is still at Gogarth Farm with one daughter and a servant. John Owen and family, her son, live next door to them.

Helig.




Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #24 on: February 26, 2013, 01:55:50 PM »
I did have a brief look at the Marriage Registers today for Llandudno but could not find any trace of a Marriage for John Owen the father or Grandfather.  It's possible that they both married women from outside the town and that's why they are not shown.
After giving up on it I took my dog for a walk on the West Shore and then had a drive up the Great Orme.
The first photo is of some of the old cottages in Tyn Y Coed Road and the other is of the site where Llwyn Helig was with Pyllau Farm on the right.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 05:03:31 PM »
This is an old photo C1880 of the ruins of the Bishops Palace looking towards Llandudno.  The buidings in the background are of a Gogarth Farm and it may be that of the Owen Family.
It has long since been demolished and a friend of mine lives in a house where the farm once stood.  Over the years they have found numerous farming objects including small and unusual horseshoes that have been dated to the 1400's

jom

  • Member
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 10:03:16 PM »
Thanks both for the updates.  Great pictures too, Hugo.  Not sure I could handle living there.  What would have been Llwyn Helig looks quite lonely despite the neighbouring farm.  A Winter there must be quite harsh to say the least.  New Zealand certainly has greater attractions for me these days.  I am just soaking up all these ideas and thoughts and opened up my family tree on the Owen side to see how the ideas might fit in. 

For no apparent reason I remembered something my Dad once said (this is his maternal line).  He had commented on his middle name, John being a "family name".  Thought nothing of it till now as there was no real "line" to suggest this, other than a few chaps were called John dotted around the tree here and there on several of his branches.  Looking at the OWEN line in my tree let alone our thoughts on parentage etc, I realise how many John OWENs there were.  Of those in direct descendency of whom I'm sure, I have 4 then possibly a 5th which we are investigating!  My Dad knew little of his family but like all families comments were made and thoughts passed down.  Mind you they didn't use the name John themselves!!

I will look over all the information so far gathered and see where it takes me.  As you said Hugo from a population of 318, some of the coincidences would seem a little too strong.

Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 11:53:32 AM »
Jom, I was thinking about this last night and the only thing we know for certain is that your John Owen was Baptised on 18th Nov 1821 and that his father was John Owen a bachelor and miner from Gogarth and the mother being Ann Evans a single woman from Llwyn Helig.
I was trying to link them all to the farm of Gogarth Bach but can't at present, but there was a Baptism for Elizabeth daughter of John Owen miner of Tynycoed by Mary his wife on 17th April 1814.   I don't think he is your relative on account that he was married and the ages don't tally up with him being a father or grandfather to your John.
What did interest me though was the Baptism in 1823 for Mary, the father being John Owen miner of Penmynydd (near Llwyn helig) by Alice his wife.
Now, going back to John Owens of the Prince of Wales, although I thought at first that he was not your relative on account of the Owen(s) but after seeing the Baptism records your John's father was in fact recorded as John Owens which ties in.
Also John Owens age ties in with the Baptism I found on 23rd Jan 1797.
This is just pure speculation but John Owen Snr was a bachelor in 1821, perhaps by 1823 he had married Alice from Holywell and moved to Penmynydd on the Great Orme. 
We know from records that a John Owens set up home with Alice from Holywell in the 1830's on the Morfa with the other squatters. Their house was originally called Pen Y Gro but when the Prince of Wales steamer started running from Liverpool to Menai Bridge they changed the name of the house to Prince of Wales and it was converted into an Inn and did quite well out of it as a result.

Helig

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #28 on: February 28, 2013, 03:43:46 PM »
Just a few thoughts by way of conclusion to this.

I found Ellen Owen and two grandsons, Thomas aged 23, William, aged 21, living at Gogarth Farm in the 1901 census. she had a servant with her, so they cannot have been too badly off. In the dwelling next but one was Miriam Jones in her shop.

It can be said for certain that Gogarth Farm was in the possession of this Owen family for a long period of time. I wondered if Mostyn Estates would have owned this and whether there would be information in their archives.

The entry on the 1871 shows that the father of Owen Owens was the brother of Jane Owens. This is the relationship of "Nephew" Owen to Jane as Head of the household. Also, on that census, John Jones, aged 76, Tailor. Was he the father of Eleanor?

I suspect a link with your ancestor John Owen and this family named Owen who occupied Gogarth Farm.

I did a search of the trees on Genes Reunited and found a few entries for John Owen, both bc1800 and 1821, that were possible matches for your ancestor. It might be worth exploring this site.

Some of the Welsh parish registers are on Find My Past but as yet, Llandudno is not on there. It will be before too long no doubt. I will keep an eye on it.

Don't think the Great Orme is a lonely, forbidding, place, far from it. The Orme has a beauty and spirit of its own and is unique. There is nothing better than a walk round it, or up it to lighten the mood. It has all sorts of magical places and is a journey into the past of the Wales of the ancients.

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

You are not allowed to view links. Register or Login

Helig.



Hugo

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
Re: John OWEN born 1821
« Reply #29 on: February 28, 2013, 05:45:56 PM »
 It can be said for certain that Gogarth Farm was in the possession of this Owen family for a long period of time. I wondered if Mostyn Estates would have owned this and whether there would be information in their archives.

I suspect a link with your ancestor John Owen and this family named Owen who occupied Gogarth Farm.

Helig I can tell you for a fact that Mostyn Estates owned the farm because it was on the deeds of my friend's house which was built on the site of the farm.
How it came into Mostyn's ownership, I don't know because the land was given to the Bishop of Bangor by Edward I but I suspect something dodgy if the Mostyns are involved.

I thought that the same Helig about John, perhaps his grandparents brought him up and not his biological father or mother.      ???