Yre Rofft / Yre Roffl and Y Pentre Rhinleding

[jom]

My 3 x g grandparents, Hugh JONES bn abt 1806 was noted as living at "Yre Rofft" and Sarah HUGHES bn aby 1805 was noted as living at  Y Pentre Rhinleding, or so they read to me on their marriage cert.  Can anyone help me identify this address in modern terms and or translate the names.  Hugh was a miner and the family were noted in Christopher Draper's book as being the tennant farmers of Adwy Rhydd for some 50 years. 

Also if anyone has any info on them or links to them, I would welcome to hear.  I have traced them with all the relevant census returns and the marriage cert suggests Hugh' father was Moses JONES and Sarah's was Robert HUGHES.  I have an idea re their mothers' first names but little else.  Hugh died abt 1877 and Sarah abt 1880

This site remains a gold mine of info and a very valuable resource to many.  Thank you all

[Hugo]

If it was Yr Rofft Llandudno then the house may have been the one by the Black Gate on the Great Orme. Rrofft Bach was near there too.     As to Y Pentref Rhinledig then I've never heard of that name.
Adwy Rhydd was a thatched smallholding that was to the east of the present day Bodafon Farm

[Hugo]

Y Pentre Rhinleding,  does that appear on the Census for the Llandudno area?

If it does then I wonder if it is Rhiwledyn which forms part of the Little Orme,    The words  Y Pentre in English mean "the village"  and people may have referred to it like that area in those old days although I have never heard the term mentioned before.

[jom]

Hi Hugo, 
Many thanks for the reply and the pictures.  I've attached the marriage certificate and the 1841 Census return for a Robert HUGHES whom I believe to be Sarah's father.  These are the only references I have to the addresses in question.

Your musings would seem to fit and now you've told me pentre means village, it helps me understand better.  You'll note the the 1841 census attached shows it to be the lower township with Robert HUGHES entry specifically noting "Pentre".  I haven't been able to find Hugh JONES' father Moses with any degree of certainty in 1841 and therefore have no other reference to "yr Rofft" than their marriage cert.

[jom]

I've had another look at the entries and you seem to be right on both counts.  I can now see how the marriage cert may read Rhiwleding and what I thought was Yre Rofft/l is in fact Yr Rofft/l.  The photo you attached, what would the date be?  Do you know?  and where in today's terms is it or would have been?

[TheMedz]

I could be wrong (I usually am!) but the view out towards the Orme strongly resembes the webcam on a local weather site.

http://www.llandudno-weather.co.uk/

The harvested field in Hugo's equates to the field with wrapped bales on the webcam.

[Hugo]

Adwy Rhydd (Ford of the stream) was sited in the fork of the present bridleway of Ffynnon Sadwrn Lane and Bodafon Lane.   That was roughly the position where the trams entered Bodafon Fields after the property was demolished
A house has now been built on the site of Adwy Rhydd

[Hugo]

Thanks for posting the photos of the Census and the Wedding Certificate.     Looking at the Wedding Certificate it could well be Rhiwledyn which is a large area of the Little Orme.
With regard to the Census, the address is clearly Pentre but is it Pentre Isa?  Now Pentre Isa was a farm on the lower part of the Little Orme. It was built in 1680 but lost much of it's character with it's conversion to two separate dwellings in the 1970's and they are still there on a private road.
The Penrhyn Beach estate was built on most of the land from Pentre Isa.

[Hugo]

I forgot to say that the photo of Adwy Rhydd was taken before 1900 but I cannot tell you exactly when.   
Just an after thought that in Welsh Isa(f) means lower and Uchaf means higher and properties were sometimes named like that to identify their location.
Perhaps there was a Pentre Uchaf higher up the Little Orme. This is just speculation on my part as I have never heard of a Pentre Uchaf but Rhiwledyn covered a big area on the Little Orme and there were a number of properties in that location.

[Hugo]

I was looking at the Census for 1841 again and the sequence of addresses does put Pentre  ?  on the Little Orme,  It would be interesting to see the next page on the Census because that would just confirm that it is the Little Orme.
Incidentally the ages of Hugh Jones and Robert Hughes on the 1841 Census may be incorrect and the reason for this is that in 1841 the ages for the adults were rounded down to the nearest 5 years. 
Eg if they were 34 the age would show 30 on the Census. Likewise if they were 38 the Census would show 35.     
This only applies to 1841 and if you looked at the 1851 Census it would show you their correct ages.

[Cambrian]

I think I can shed some light on this.  Ken Dibble records that Pentre Ucha Farm was also known as Pentre or Pentre Rhiw. It was a holding of around 12 acres. By 1808 it was tenanted by Robert Hughes. There may have been more than one actual dwelling there as at least two other households feature.  Robert and Margaret Hughes had three children - Elizabeth (b 1791 d 1813 buried at Llanrhos), Robert (b 1796), and Sarah (b 1805).  Sarah married Hugh Jones a miner from Llandudno on 18th October 1837. Robert and Margaret took over the tenancy of Adwy Rhydd and Robert junior remained at Pentre Uchaf and took over the tenacy from his father. It looks as if this is the same family so hopefully this will fill in a few gaps. I think the property was opposite Simmda Hir and probably disappeared when the road was built.

Hugo -you may remember the old stone building behind the wall opposite Simdda Hir which was demolished a few years ago.  I wonder if that was the last remnant of farm buildings.

[jom]

Well that's already more than I had hoped.  Thank you Hugo for the photo of the new build on the site of Ady Rhydd.  Tried to look at your suggestion TheMedz re the webcam, clearly I forgot I'm in NZ these days ... Black pictures - Night time    Will try again later in the day.

Have attached a close up of the 1841 Census address for Robert HUGHES, it's preceeding page and the 2 following pages to assist.  I haven't been able to find Robert on the 1851 census and far too many Robert HUGHES' died between 1841 and 1851 to attempt a guess when he died.  There has been a suggestion that the 1851 census for Hugh JONES and Sarah (HUGHES) has Sarah's mother Margaret on it. The "Visitor" however whilst suggested as being 68, I think reads 48. Either way she is not old enough, so I think she too may have died between 1841 and 1851.  Again too many to hazard a guess as to which.

Cambrian,  Could you tell me a little of Ken DIBBLE.  The information you gave re Robert and Margaret HUGHES and their children other than Sarah is new to me.  Thank you VERY much.  As you say fills a few gaps.  It certainly does seem to be the same gang.  I'll try following Robert Jnr in the census records and see where that gets me!

Loving all of this, thank you so much D)

[dwsi]

I just did a google search trawl and this came up

http://holiday-cottage-llandudno.co.uk/north-wales-holiday-cottage-penrhynside-penygroesffordd-history/

William Hugh Hughes had a variety of occupations -originally working on his parents farm at Pentre Isa, Penrhyn Bay before moving to Penrhynside, he later earned a living as a general carter/coal merchant and also worked in the quarries on the Little Orme. By 1903, as part of his general carting business, he was appointed by the local Council to collect and dispose of refuse in Penrhyn parish, presumably using his own horse and cart, at the rate of one shilling (5p) per load. Also living with William Hugh and Ann Hughes in this period were Edward Hughes, a quarryman and his wife Sarah Elizabeth whose son Isaac was born there in 1897 – they later moved to Mona House, Pendre Road.

[Hugo]

Cambrian, that was a really great find of yours.  Was Ken Dibble's book called "Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol" ?     It was in the Conwy Archives and I had a quick peek and the book was full of information that would help anyone that was interested in that area.
The new Census details posted are helpful because the addresses are in sequence and I noticed that Ty Uchaf was the 2nd one on the new list.   Ty Uchaf is still there and is the last surviving farm on the Little Orme.
If you go from Shimdda Hir (The new Premier Inn) and take the main road to Colwyn Bay then Ty Uchaf is on the left down a lane and public footpath.  So this makes Pentre as being somewhere between the two.
It may be the one that you have mentioned but I don't know.  The only thing I can be sure of is that it was very near Shimdda Hir.
It seems that we are getting very near to finding where it was.

The 1st photo is of the site of Adwy Rhydd with the trams going through it.
The 2nd photo was taken from the Little Orme and shows Bryn Y Bia Road and some Farms and buidings on the right of the road. I don't know the identity of those properties though.

[Hugo]

I was in the Conwy Archives today and had a look at the book by Ken Dibble called "Bodafon and Pant Y Wennol".    Unfortunately it did  not cover as far as Pentre.  In fact Adwy Rhydd was it's most easterly point.
The land of Adwy Rhydd covered where I have mentioned but it also covered  land to the north and east of the photo.
Cambrian must have another book covering the Little Orme and perhaps Penrhynside and there may be a map in the book to identify the location of Pentre.

I did have a look for a Moses Jones in the Welsh Census of 1841 and there were two who lived near Llandudno. One lived in Gyffin and the other in Llanbedr Y Cennin. Both were born about 1871 and aged 60.  The Gyffin man was an agricultural labourer with a son Richard aged 25 living at home and the other from Llanbedr was a farmer who had Thomas,Jane and John aged 30,25 and 5 (?) respectively living at home.       The wives of both of them were called Anne.   

The photo is of the Craigside Premier Inn which started off as Simdda Hir (Long chimney)  but has had many extensions and changes of use since its farming days.  There is a property called stables out of sight and to the left in the photo and a number of cottages are behind the woods and called Simdda Hir Cottages.