Author Topic: National politics  (Read 313316 times)

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Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1050 on: December 13, 2019, 12:43:27 pm »
That Labour has endured its worst result since 1935 isn't a surprise to anyone, except those who supported the sainted JC. His resignation is the one good thing to emerge from today's shambles.

The BBC published a graphic illustration showing how NHS expenditure over the past 20 years was lowest under the Tories and highest under Labour.  I suspect as the egregious B  Johnson is revealed to be the liar we all knew he was, there will start a slow but inexorable move away from the Tories. But too late for the five years that will follow.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1051 on: December 13, 2019, 02:50:46 pm »
A lot of the voting was tactical as many staunch Labour voters actually voted for the Conservatives as they considered that Jeremy Corbyn was the worst ever leader of any Labour Party
Now lets give the Conservative Government a chance and see whether their promises were true or false, time will tell


Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1052 on: December 13, 2019, 03:40:59 pm »
Sadly, we already know that B  Johnson is a confirmed liar.  Fullfact.org has been checking his 'promises' and has found some interesting things:

He's talked about increasing the number of nurses.  But even if another 50,000 nurses were hired tomorrow, it would only bring the number of nurses per 1,000 to the highest level it has been since at least 2010.  So nine years ago we had at least 50,000 more nurses.  Who's been  in charge since then?

He added that: “40 new hospitals will be built”.

Six hospitals in England have been given the money to upgrade their buildings within the next five years. The rest are being given a total of £100 million in “seed funding” to develop plans for their hospitals between 2025 and 2030, but no money for any actual building work. The current plan is for works on these hospitals to take place between 2025 and 2030.

So when will any new hospitals be built?

He lies all the time.   He claimed "The money going into the NHS as you know, it's the biggest increase in living memory, a £34 billion increase.”

Once you adjust for inflation (which is the most meaningful way to look at spending increases) the “£34 billion” is a spending increase of £20.5 billion between 2018/19 and 2023/24. But the last time spending increased by at least that amount over five years was between 2004/05 and 2009/10. 

So I think we know what to expect.  It's just a massive shame that Labour couldn't see what many of its own MPs could and what most Labour supporters could: Corbyn was a huge liability.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1053 on: December 13, 2019, 05:16:23 pm »
s:

He's talked about increasing the number of nurses.  But even if another 50,000 nurses were hired tomorrow, it would only bring the number of nurses per 1,000 to the highest level it has been since at least 2010.  So nine years ago we had at least 50,000 more nurses.  Who's been  in charge since then?

So I think we know what to expect.  It's just a massive shame that Labour couldn't see what many of its own MPs could and what most Labour supporters could: Corbyn was a huge liability.

Ian, we already know that of those 50,000 nurses,  19,000 are already employed by the NHS so the actual increase in nurses would be 31,000,   But if we do get them will that be spread over time, say 5 years?
20,000 extra Police officers too to replace the ones that the Cons have cut already.      We need the nurses and Police now not in stages

Offline Blongb

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1054 on: December 13, 2019, 06:01:03 pm »
It's a great surprise to me that most people don't know that it was Conservative voters who elected JC leader of the Labour Party. I know that sounds daft but..... Who had the longest odds against being elected to lead the Labour Party.....JC. How many new people joined Labour without any form of verification, just before he won?..... and how much money was laid on with the Bookies in those last few days before his unexpected victory? It was a win win situation for the Conservatives, a lot of very clever people made a great deal of money on the betting and they knew no sane person was going to elect an old Trotskyist and his Islington Cohorts to run the country. Poor old JC he will just have to walk around to Diane Abbott's house with a new sign  $booboo$  and with a bit of luck she will be able to tell him how many beans make five.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1055 on: December 13, 2019, 06:11:24 pm »
That's certainly true and Corbyn even voted over 530 times against his own party, far more that dodgy Dave Cameron ever did

He's just a protester, certainly no leader and the sooner he stands down,  along with some of his Marxist friends then the Labour Party will have a chance to rebuild and regain the confidence of voters again

Offline Blongb

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1056 on: December 15, 2019, 03:29:00 pm »
I've been listening to Nicola Sturgeon and Ian Blackford stating the will of the Scottish people cannot be denied and that we must give in to their demand for a second independence referendum. What I haven't heard is anyone South of the border giving the SNP a reality check as every breakup has its price and the financial cost to Scotland would be astronomical..
   
The National Debt is currently running around £1,821 Billion. The Scottish proportion of that, with 8.4% of the UK population, would be £153 Billion. They would loose all of the money including the overpayment as a result of the Barnett formula which they currently enjoy, whereby they get more from the Exchequer each year than they contribute.

Can they be deluded enough to think Europe would accept them as a member of the EU when it would be impossible for them to meet the financial requirements of membership, especially with the loss to the Community of the UK's current contribution.

Labour have just had a reality check, I think it's time the SNP had one as well and if they still wish to go down the independence road Good Luck to them. We can still be my friends but at least my taxes wont be paying for it.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline SteveH

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1057 on: December 15, 2019, 05:23:18 pm »
Blongb, I am still in touch with relatives and friends throughout Scotland, and not one wants independence, most agree the UK is to small already, speaking on the subject, to an uncle over the weekend, he mentioned that the majority of his golf club, although of mixed political preferences, are against it, so lets hope common sense prevails

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1058 on: December 15, 2019, 05:41:26 pm »
What I find interesting and depressing in equal measure is that between them Labour and the Lib Dems gained 13,967,696 votes while the Tories only gained 13,941,086 votes; 26,610 less than the Lib Dems and Labour.  Lib Dems and Labour have 213 seats and the Tories 365.

This is why the Tories have run scared about introducing PR for years. And it's why the entire UK should have PR. Because the electorate have a right to be fairly represented.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1059 on: December 15, 2019, 06:24:53 pm »
Blongb,  you are correct in everything that you have said and Nicola Sturgeon should be honest and tell the people of Scotland about the reality of voting for independence for Scotland,
First of all there is no automatic guarantee that Scotland could get into the EU,  even if they did it would take many years for them to do it and they could expect strong opposition from other countries especially from Spain
Secondly the currency aspect, they cannot use the EU and the UK has already said that Scotland cannot be linked to the Pound Sterling.
Then there has to be a hard border between Scotland and England and the implications of future trade with the UK including defence.

We need Scotland as much as Scotland needs us and together we are stronger as a united kingdom as Steve's posting has explained

The Liberal Party has been trying for PR for years but the idea has been blocked by the two main parties who have too much to lose by going for PR.      Instead we have to put up with the hype and lies of the Conservative and Labour Parties, why can't they put the interests of the UK before party politics


Offline DVT

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1060 on: December 15, 2019, 06:26:08 pm »
I am certainly no expert on politics but ...

... 3 years ago there was a democratic vote that UK left the EU ... this was followed by so many things put in the way that we are still waiting for it to happen, the delay having cost us a fortune in the meantime.

... not long ago Scotland held a democratic vote that Scotland remains part of the UK ... since then their political leader has continually bleated about having a second referendum to try and get the result she wants.

... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1061 on: December 15, 2019, 08:56:41 pm »
... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.

So do you think it';s democratic when the majority of votes cast were against the Tory party? More voted for the other parties than the Tories.  In Wales we have PR, so that doesn't happen.   Nor in Scotland.  Perhaps it's time the UK Parliament followed suit and gave us a democracy worthy of the name.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Blongb

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1062 on: December 15, 2019, 10:51:10 pm »
The biggest problem with a PR system is you are likely to end up with governments like Italy or Belgium where they are changed with such regular monotony no actual governing takes place.
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline mondie

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1063 on: December 16, 2019, 10:02:34 pm »
I don't know why that would be Blongb, Australia has had PR for over 100 years and that hasn't been an issue. If the democratic vote is finely balanced and a hung parliament results that is not a mark against PR, it's just the reality of a fine balance. I saw an analysis the other indicating that this election if run under PR would have resulted in a hung parliament and the LD's with 80 seats. Instead, we now have a conman as PM who got in with a policy based upon deception. Marvellous.

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #1064 on: December 17, 2019, 02:55:00 pm »
... a few days ago we had a democratic election to see who would lead the UK for the next few years.  The result was clear.  So for how long are we going to keep hearing from people who cannot accept the result going on about.

... this is the United Kingdom, so let's get United for the good of the 60 million or so citizens.

So do you think it';s democratic when the majority of votes cast were against the Tory party? More voted for the other parties than the Tories.  In Wales we have PR, so that doesn't happen.   Nor in Scotland.  Perhaps it's time the UK Parliament followed suit and gave us a democracy worthy of the name.
If Labour had won, of course, it would have been a fair victory and there wouldn't be a problem!  ;D