Author Topic: National politics  (Read 313327 times)

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Offline Hugo

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Re: National politics
« Reply #765 on: May 23, 2017, 05:12:16 pm »
In troubled times like this what the UK needs is a  strong and decisive leadership, a good economy and a strong and competent Home Secretary.
What the Labour Party are offering to fill these roles are Corbyn,  McDonnell and Diane Abbott.        &shake&

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwiBpYWKqIbUAhViLsAKHcffD40QqUMIJDAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.thesun.co.uk%2Fnews%2F3625746%2Finnocent-people-were-murdered-specifically-because-jeremy-corbyn-and-john-mcdonnell-sucked-up-to-the-ira%2F&usg=AFQjCNHz2wBeOcer3S2AgxgWFg8DkwRDmA

Offline Bosun

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Re: National politics
« Reply #766 on: May 23, 2017, 09:50:00 pm »

B2R, I don't know whether you are not reading what I wrote, or I'm not writing what you read, but I'll try and simplify it for you.

Not to utterly and totally condemn acts of carnage and terrorism is wrong. Corbyn and McDonnell failed to do that for 35 plus years and supported those who were involved in committing those atrocities. They should be disgusted with their conduct and those who support them should be ashamed. No matter how much I may agree with the  policies of the Labour party, I'll never vote for them whilst those two hold positions of influence. 

Our thoughts are with families and of the dead and injured in Manchester in a wanton act of savage carnage. Yet sadly, and sickeningly, someone, somewhere will be justifying it and tacitly supporting it.

Supporting or trying to justify terrorism in any form is sickening. Condemn it.

Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.


Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #767 on: May 24, 2017, 08:04:14 am »
Absolutely it was a needless and horrific event but I don't believe that the US response to that can ever be justified.

To be honest I thought the response was surprisingly muted, given the scale of the atrocity. And the IRA were in a different class: for a start, they didn't kill themselves in the process. other than by accident. And they concentrated their efforts on destroying property and causing chaos, rather than killing people.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #768 on: May 24, 2017, 08:10:18 am »
I have to say that the tone of the comments from the various leaders was almost unanimous, yesterday. With the exception of Corbyn they condemned the barbarity and pure evil of the perpetrators. Corbyn sidestepped direct condemnation in the terms others had used.  Now, this may be down to the fact that he doesn't tend to discuss people very much and concentrates more on actions and policies. But at the moment I'm not sure that's what folk need to hear.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #769 on: May 24, 2017, 08:44:21 am »

B2R, I don't know whether you are not reading what I wrote, or I'm not writing what you read, but I'll try and simplify it for you.

Not to utterly and totally condemn acts of carnage and terrorism is wrong. Corbyn and McDonnell failed to do that for 35 plus years and supported those who were involved in committing those atrocities. They should be disgusted with their conduct and those who support them should be ashamed. No matter how much I may agree with the  policies of the Labour party, I'll never vote for them whilst those two hold positions of influence. 

Our thoughts are with families and of the dead and injured in Manchester in a wanton act of savage carnage. Yet sadly, and sickeningly, someone, somewhere will be justifying it and tacitly supporting it.

Supporting or trying to justify terrorism in any form is sickening. Condemn it.

What on earth are you wittering on about?

Corbyn did condemn this attack

"In the midst of our democratic debate and arguments we’re united in condemning this depraved act of terror."

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/our-hearts-broken-resolve-never-10485855

He did also condemn the IRA bombings as I have posted earlier.

The IRA have nothing to do with this attack, through successful negotiations we now have peace (at least for the time being) in Northern Ireland. That is something Jeremy Corbyn has always wanted - he wasn't in the IRA, he never supported the IRA. This lady though - she was an active member of the IRA, she actively participated in terrorist acts.... so I assume you'll never vote Tory because of your beliefs either?

http://www.croydonadvertiser.co.uk/activists-point-to-councillor-8217-s-ira-past-as-tories-claim-corbyn-refused-to-condemn-terrorists/story-30346739-detail/story.html

Finally you bleat about political point scoring - you were the one who mentioned Jeremy Corbyn in the first place! Like he is in someway responsible for this attack. This has nothing to do with the IRA, nothing to do with Corbyn and all to do with the aftermath of 9/11 and the strains on our policing and security services.

No need at all to mention Jeremy Corbyn who like the rest of us is shocked and saddened that such a thing has happened.

Offline Bosun

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Re: National politics
« Reply #770 on: May 24, 2017, 09:38:16 am »
I must have missed the part that mentioned anything about 'political point scoring', and if you think that there is really peace in Northern Ireland, you don't have any concept of the circumstances that actually currently exist there. It's also interesting to know that the Croydon Advertiser is the mainstay of your 'informed' opinions. As for Jeremy Corbyn never supporting the IRA, I suggest you read this :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/Jeremy_Corbyn/11924431/Revealed-Jeremy-Corbyn-and-John-McDonnells-close-IRA-links.html and note the referencing for the points in the article, before you describe it as 'right-wing press propaganda'.

but, I admit it's not exactly the same as having it in such a doyen of the press as the Croydon Advertiser.

And, finally, I'm sorry B2R, I can't make it any simpler for you with giving you wax crayons. I said " I cannot, and never will, bring myself to vote for the party of a potential Prime Minister who has repeatedly refused to categorically and unreservedly condemn an organisation that has caused similar atrocities."

Perhaps we should just spend some time with our thoughts for the people who are suffering from the tragedy and sadness that this atrocity, the parents, the maimed children, relatives, the list is endless. To target deliberately children - sorry, I cannot even begin comprehend it.   


Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #771 on: May 24, 2017, 10:53:58 am »
Well perhaps next time you want remember people suffering from tragedy and sadness do that, instead of trying to tenuously connect what happened to a politician standing for election. I certainly had no intention of discussing politics until you made your ridiculous statement about Jeremy Corbyn.

Offline Bosun

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Re: National politics
« Reply #772 on: May 24, 2017, 11:11:34 am »
Well perhaps next time you want remember people suffering from tragedy and sadness do that, instead of trying to tenuously connect what happened to a politician standing for election. I certainly had no intention of discussing politics until you made your ridiculous statement about Jeremy Corbyn.

Congratulations. You've won the wax crayons outright.....
Being negative only makes a difficult journey more difficult. You may have been given a cactus, but you don't have to sit on it.

Offline DaveR

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Re: National politics
« Reply #773 on: May 25, 2017, 08:54:56 am »
We are now reaping what Blair has sown...

"it is easy to forget just how much immigration and asylum haunted Downing Street throughout New Labour’s time in office. Between 1997 and 2010, net annual immigration quadrupled, and the UK population was boosted by more than 2.2 million immigrants, more than twice the population of Birmingham. In Labour’s last term in government, 2005-2010, net migration reached on average 247,000 a year."*

Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis. Lets look at terrorist attacks in the UK and who committed them:

2017 Manchester - Salman Abedi
2017 Westminster - Khalid Masood
2015 Leytonstone - Muhiddin Mire
2013 Lee Rigby Murder - Michael Adebolajo & Michael Adebowale
2007 Glasgow Airport - Bilal Abdulla and Kafeel Ahmed
2005 London - Mohammad Sidique Khan, Shehzad Tanweer, Abdullah Shaheed Jamal, Hasib Mir Hussain

MI5 are currently monitoring more than 3,000 Islamists willing to carry out attacks in Britain.**

Scary times.... &shake&


* https://www.theguardian.com/news/2015/mar/24/how-immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story
** - https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/3000-terror-suspects-plotting-to-attack-uk-t7hfpqfbbp6

Offline born2run

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Re: National politics
« Reply #774 on: May 25, 2017, 09:25:57 am »
The attacker was born here what has immigration got to do with anything?

It's thanks to that immigration that we have Doctors in our hospitals saving lives, thanks to that immigration that we have a stronger economy.

Between the 70s and the 90s nearly all terrorist attacks were carried out by Irish people.
Did you want to curb the number of Irish people moving to Britain?

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #775 on: May 25, 2017, 10:10:12 am »
But from your own list, Dave, weren't the last four terrorist acts committed under a Tory-led government?

Immigration has continued to rise under..er, let me see if I can remember... Oh yes - Teresa May as Home Secretary. And the Times link is not accessible to anyone who doesn't continue to fund Murdock's evil empire.

The Guardian link, however, is interesting and reveals that many of the immigration cases were and are asylum seekers. What would you have any government do?

But let's get this clear: to say
Quote
Thanks to Blair, we can look forward to horrific atrocities on a regular basis.
is like saying thanks to Julius Caesar we can look forward to world wide wars. And it's worth remembering that the greatest immigration over the last four years has been from Pakistan, Iraq and other Middle Eastern countries, and that was when Teresa was Home Secretary.  So a bit of balance please.   

And in the '80s Meibion Glyndŵr was busily destroying houses in Wales, so perhaps we should deport all the Welsh? I hear Rockall's nice at this time of year  WWW

My biggest concern is how all this plays into the hands of UKIP, whose manifesto is now available.



Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Hugo

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Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #776 on: May 25, 2017, 11:14:33 pm »
I was in Chester today, and noticed two armed police officers casually walking around the centre, with those large military-style assault rifles (or whatever they are - I'm no gun expert) held across their chests as if in readiness to use.

This was in the midst of kids eating their ice creams, people enjoying the sun, etc. These police didn't look as if they'd been called out to deal with any particular scare/threat - just patrolling.

Seems really over the top to me. I can understand the need to have such officers on readiness nearby. But walking around like that unnecessarily alarming people? I don't think Britain is quite a war zone yet, is it? And given the particular nature of the threat, I doubt it makes us any safer.

How often have we heard people complaining about not having Bobbies patrolling the streets anymore, there may be no obvious threat or scare then but it gives the public some reassurance when they see them out and about
The threats are never obvious,  but you've seen children and adults enjoying music and then being the innocent victims of a terrorist.
Just be grateful that we have these people protecting us.

Offline Fester

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #777 on: May 26, 2017, 12:17:39 am »
BMD, you must be either out of your mind, or living in some smug fantasy world to complain about this. Which is it?
Fester...
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Offline Ian

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Re: Re: Terrorism and the response
« Reply #778 on: May 26, 2017, 08:07:21 am »
I believe BMD is making a valid point. We're down in London quite a bit and the police there seem routinely armed, as they are in Manchester Airport so folk become inured to the sight of heavily armed specialist Police. But it's possible that the Security services have identified links locally between the Manchester individual and Chester or, the more likely option, they're making a show of parading force in areas with large concentrations of people.

But his last sentence is very important: given the particular nature of the threat, I doubt it makes us any safer. Suicide bombers aren't defeated by armed police. Hot weather, possibly, since they would stand out wearing a gelignite vest or heavy coat, but shooting a suspected suicide bomber is the very definition of counter-productive.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline Ian

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Re: National politics
« Reply #779 on: May 26, 2017, 08:19:36 am »
It shouldn't, I know, but it does disappoint me that Corbyn is linking the Manchester attack to British foreign policy.  He really should either invest in some decent researchers or do a bit of reading.

The roots of radical Islam go back to the early 19th Century and the concept of Jihad is well established in the religion as a legitimate war on non-Islamics in the cause of establishing the Islamic religion. I don't doubt that any involvement in the Arabian peninsula over the past 300 years has aggravated the situation but the main responsibility - if there is one - goes back to the 1100s and the crusades, where the Western powers at that time sought to eliminate the Arabs. The crusades managed to create long-lasting damage to the Arabian peoples, and they only really started emerging from that in the last 200 years.

But once again we're back to a very simple truism: the two things responsible for almost all wars are language and religion.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.