Author Topic: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno  (Read 75233 times)

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Nemesis

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #390 on: September 11, 2014, 11:32:33 AM »
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So you're actually just guessing then?  :P

I wonder if any of the local traders on the forum can comment on whether they received a share of the supposed £1,000,000 boost to the economy on Monday?

errrrrrrrr- No !
Mad, Bad and Dangerous to know.

born2run

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #391 on: September 11, 2014, 12:05:35 PM »
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Surely everyone has said what they need to about the litter wardens. And the Tour of Britain has been and gone - some of you think it was great and others may not.

Perhaps we can have an 'ongoing arguments' topic on the forum so that the topics that interest me do not become cluttered with disagreements between individuals.

Thanks

I thought the whole thing was the ongoing arguments forum  _))*

Anyway people are always moaning about seeing posts they don't like, I honestly don't get it! it's a forum - for the public, some people will have the cheek to talk about things you don't want to hear about. Tough. Either ignore it or go on a website dedicated to the things you want to read about.

SteveH

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #392 on: September 11, 2014, 02:28:42 PM »
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Just remembered, yesterday on my way to see the cycle race, I passed The Hambone, and the ground was littered with their distinctive napkins and wooden stir spoons, when I returned, it was worse, and this time, there were no customers, the tables had been cleared and cleaned, I was surprised, it was a poor reflection on this business.  ...outside cafes and takeaways have a responsibility to themselves and the town to keep their area clean. 
So is this LITTERING ......who deals with this?.......
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Litter Wardens should spend some time between John Brights School and Asda/McDonald's.
The pupils buy lunch there and guess what happens to the packaging
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Should shops be held responsible for their litter, and the adjacent area?
Should schools make pupils aware...more respect for their town, not just litter, public gardens, I have seen schoolboys take great delight in destroying flower beds etc.
Can/should a litter warden fine/warn  schoolchildren.

Ian

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #393 on: September 11, 2014, 05:24:44 PM »
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I'm sure if you had a vulnerable friend or family member who had been accosted by these people and had been left traumatised after the indecent, you yourself would feel quite differently.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying. This is not about them in any way.  It's about you describing a group of people employed to do a job as 'scum'. Do you not admit it's a generalisation? The points you make about uniforms, vulnerable people and disproportionate fines are irrelevant to the point I've been making consistently. They are, in the realms of logic, what are deemed 'straw men' and contribute nothing to the debate.

Here's the point: you had a go - at some length - at Fester when you accused him of generalising about a group of people. Notwithstanding the fact that he didn't actually impute any of the things you claim he did, you then went on to generalise yourself in much blunter and more vituperative terms, by calling members of this community 'scum'.

My point is very simple: leaving the actual litter wardens out of it, do you accept that

1. Fester did not generalise
2. You in fact inferred that from what Fester had written.
3. You condemned Fester for generalising about a group (when he didn't)
4. You then went on to generalise about another group.


There may well be a lot of substance in your issues with the litter enforcement agency but that's not the point.  To quote your own words in this context , "You can't say all of them behave [like scum]. That's a ridiculous generalisation."



(I can't believe I'm going to these lengths in defence of Fester either...)
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

SteveH

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #394 on: September 11, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »
It's not just us...    Litter wardens

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Fester

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #395 on: September 11, 2014, 10:36:15 PM »
On the subject of Litter Wardens,    Thanks to Ian and B2R,  I love both of you Guys.   :-*
But..... I like generalising,  it allows me to be as prejudiced as I like, and it makes life very simple for me.
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.
The rest it is just noise..... but being defended makes a nice change!


On the subject of the Bike Race 'Bonanza'
Well, most of the Pier shops closed for the day, realising that access to the Pier would be nigh on impossible for any customers.
Those who were foolish enough to open reported that it was a complete waste of time.
So,  it might be nice if some of this 'Million Quid' could be pushed the way of traders, as compensation, for LOST income, rather than this fictitious boost to trade? 
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Ian

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #396 on: September 12, 2014, 08:31:37 AM »
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It's not just us...    Litter wardens

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Fascinating sociological study of the Superman dilemma: what happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object. Who'd be anything even remotely official in Merseyside?

Interestingly, the fact that the litter had been deposited on private property makes no legal difference whatsoever. The anti-litter legislation covers everything in the UK 'open to the air'.

Quote
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.

I wonder if this isn't a similar situation to the early 'bouncer' firms? I'm very aware that a sage comment by ME was overlooked, earlier, when he observed this is not a lot to do with the wardens per se, but to do with the oversight, training and management, both by the companies of their employees and of the council with regard to the company.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.



Ian

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #397 on: September 12, 2014, 08:38:50 AM »
Seems Merseyside is not the place to become a Litter enforcement operative:

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“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Ian

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #398 on: September 12, 2014, 08:41:06 AM »
This is how the Police treat things...

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In this instance, of course, he was filming close to Windsor Castle, and had there been a serious incident shortly afterwards, then the Police would have been expected to explain why they allowed filming by someone who refused to say why he was filming.  Of course,had he been a terrorist planning an attack, he certainly wouldn't have refused to say anything - unless he was a pretty dim terrorist.

But Yorkie's comment about their status, earlier, does pose the question as to exactly what powers the enforcement officers have.
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

born2run

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #399 on: September 12, 2014, 11:15:22 AM »
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It's not just us...    Litter wardens

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Fascinating sociological study of the Superman dilemma: what happens when the irresistible force meets the immovable object. Who'd be anything even remotely official in Merseyside?

Interestingly, the fact that the litter had been deposited on private property makes no legal difference whatsoever. The anti-litter legislation covers everything in the UK 'open to the air'.

Quote
Quite simply, I despise the Litter Wardens, how they look and how they behave.... it must be addressed.

I wonder if this isn't a similar situation to the early 'bouncer' firms? I'm very aware that a sage comment by ME was overlooked, earlier, when he observed this is not a lot to do with the wardens per se, but to do with the oversight, training and management, both by the companies of their employees and of the council with regard to the company.

Ian.. HONESTLY I think Fester did generalise and I think I didn't! I don't think we are ever going to agree on those things, if we keep arguing it is going to go on and on and I will need to get some beer in  Z**

But I see the point you make, and how it can be easily conceived. Your comparisons with bouncers make my point even clearer.

I hate the job these 'wardens' do. I hate them for doing it

Bouncers on the other hand have a very different job are not there to dish out hugely disproportionate fines and ruin people's evenings. They are they to protect the patrons and keep away undesirables from ruining people's night out.

Now - I do agree there are some 'corrupt' bouncers and some of them are indeed 'scum' some of them use the job to bully people and to drug deal and do all sorts of things (and having worked in security I know this all to well)
But the difference is, and the reason I can if you like 'generalise' about the litter Gestapo is that the bouncers job description is not to do these things, in fact it is to do the opposite.
The Litter Wombles job description though is quite clearly to 'catch people' if they don't catch people and slap a ridiculously unfair fine on them and ruin their holiday, then they don't get paid.

That's why I feel quite comfortable saying what I like about ALL litter wardens.

Ian

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #400 on: September 12, 2014, 12:56:30 PM »
Quote
The Litter Wombles job description though is quite clearly to 'catch people'

Indeed, and as Yorkie aptly pointed out they are a civilian branch of the Police, inasmuch as their job is to enforce the law. The level of fine is set by CCBC, I suspect, within the range specified by Parliament so - again - not the fault of the individuals themselves. If we're to clinically analyse the issue then it comes down to how dedicated the individual wardens are and - probably most importantly - whether any bias is demonstrated towards specific groups of people - i.e. the vulnerable, etc.

Thus, if the issue is the level of fine, then it is CCBC or Parliament who need to be dealt with.  If it is the approach adopted by them, then you do need solid evidence, and not simply anecdotal stories.

I think the issue of whether this is scaring off holidaymakers is totally unknown, and the question has to be asked if rubbish, cigarette ends, cans and paper strewn everywhere might not do a better job.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2014, 04:25:48 PM by Ian »
“Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.”   ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Merddin Emrys

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #401 on: September 12, 2014, 04:17:03 PM »
I've still never seen one anywhere! What do they look like?
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SteveH

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #402 on: September 12, 2014, 04:38:52 PM »
Nearest I can find M.E.



Hugo

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #403 on: September 12, 2014, 04:40:40 PM »
I've never seen one either, but what is the problem here?    Is it the approach of these "Environmental Officers"  or are people simply objecting to the fact that visitors and locals alike can be fined for dropping litter?
It's not as if you can really educate people to stop dropping litter because they should be aware anyway.  They have tried it with cigarettes and even the notice on the packet "Smoking Kills" doesn't deter them, as you can see from the evidence on the ground every where.

Merddin Emrys

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Re: Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno
« Reply #404 on: September 12, 2014, 05:31:05 PM »
From what we hear on this forum, it seems that if you drop something even accidentally then they pounce and issue a fine on the spot, no warning just a fine. As I said I have not personally seen it so have no evidence myself. To me it would seem reasonable for them to say "excuse me you have dropped xxxx could you please pick it up?" If the person say's " sorry I had not noticed" then picks it up then to me end of problem! It seems not to work like that but that they hide waiting to catch people and fine them to raise money for the enforcement company and CCBC. As I say though I never see them anywhere, although that could be because I don't go to Llandudno that often these days!
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