Obstacles to Tourism in Llandudno

[Ian]

Mike,  one of the concessionaires had a receipt fall from his trouser pocket... his wife pointed to him to pick it up, but before he had chance to do so,   BANG... the scruffy officers had their pads out, and he was £75 poorer.
If it had been me, there would have been an entirely different outcome.

It seems that it's not the original (1990) Act that's responsible for all this but the 2005 amendment.  This 

"states that a person
is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise
deposits, and then leaves, any litter in any place to
which this section applies. It is no longer necessary for the
litter to cause or contribute to the defacement of a place."

The 2005 amendment also made anywhere "open to the air" a place to which the section applied, so it's a pretty wide-ranging bit of legislation.  It's also worth noting that it's an offence not to supply your full name and address if one of the litter officers asks for it.

But they do have to be able to prove the bit I've emboldened: that you actually 'left' the item or items in question. The Act doesn't seem to recognise the possibility of accidentally dropping something - such as when you get something out of a pocket and something else falls out.

On the other hand  it's worth remembering that these fairly sweeping bits of litter legislation were brought in because the existing legislation was being widely ignored. Perhaps a compromise would be to form a group to monitor the actions of these litter enforcing officers and document any incidents. Done consistently that would at least provide a clearer and more objective view of what's happening.

[Merddin Emrys]

Quote...
"states that a person
is guilty of an offence if he throws down, drops or otherwise
deposits, and then leaves, any litter in any place to
which this section applies. It is no longer necessary for the
litter to cause or contribute to the defacement of a place."

So if you drop something but do not leave then you have not committed an offence, not until you leave without picking it up. So these wardens give you a ticket when you are still there and have not yet technically committed the offence? Do they not say something like " excuse me you seem to have dropped something, we will have to fine you if you do not pick it up! " it still seems purely an exercise to generate money, totally wrong! I wonder if they fine you if you drop a £20 note?  :twoface:

[born2run]

Yep there you go - they are clearly breaking the law with regards to the leaving of the litter.
All anybody has to say as a defence is 'I was just about to pick it up'
If they further begin to intimidate (which they will as this vermin are purely after their commission) then they will be breaking their own codes of practice with regards to bullying and harassment. 

[Merddin Emrys]

  B2R agreeing with me!  the other week my other half found a wallet in the road, we handed it in to the Police and it was returned to the owner who came round with a bunch of flowers! But what if one of these wardens had seen this happen? Would he have fined the wallet owner for dropping it and leaving the scene? The Police didn't fine him for littering, but would the wardens?  :twoface:

[born2run]

B2R agreeing with me!  the other week my other half found a wallet in the road, we handed it in to the Police and it was returned to the owner who came round with a bunch of flowers! But what if one of these wardens had seen this happen? Would he have fined the wallet owner for dropping it and leaving the scene? The Police didn't fine him for littering, but would the wardens?  :twoface:

I would like to see the facts if the dropping of litter has decreased since this lot started their 'patrols' I suspect it hasn't and this is another tick box episode - where the council can say 'look we've given it to someone to deal with'
Nothing improves and the only people who suffer are visitors and residents of our town.

[Ian]

I think that's the crux of it. They have to make a call as to when you've 'left' the litter. That's why I wonder if these stories are accurate.

Some time ago I remember a front page story about an irate motorist who'd been charged for remaining in the Llanrwst co-op car park for too long.  He was adamant he hadn't. Yet what he had done, in fact, was drive out through the 'IN' gate, thus stopping the camera photographing his departure...

[Yorkie]

 I wonder if they fine you if you drop a £20 note?  :twoface:

Technically they could, but they may choose to implement the more serious offence of "Attempted bribery and corruption of a duly authorised officer."

Unless of course, they pick it up themselves and bid you a "Good day, Sir!"
 ZXZ

[Fester]

I think that's the crux of it. They have to make a call as to when you've 'left' the litter. That's why I wonder of these stories are accurate.

Actually, I don't think that is the crux of it.
The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.

[majormellons]

Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,

Get the wardens there...no skin off my nose.....I don't litter, I've nothing to fear....although the amount of dog walkers who flout the laws on the rugby pitches is disgraceful.
I've asked for a sniper tower and Carte Blanche in shooting a few dog owners, but all I get is 'health and safety won't allow it'

[majormellons]

Major melons you say people should be fined for litter ,have a look at all the empty bottles and other rubbish the rugby lads leave on the maesdu field  and the council litter pickers have to pick up ,

Do the Council charge them for this service?  If they don't, they should.

Maybe the Council could also stop giving them a Grant every year!    ZXZ

Nice try, but I 'anit biting.

WARNING-DO NOT FEED THE TROLLS!

[Ian]

The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.

So are you arguing that incentivisation per se is wrong, or only the way it's used by the litter wardens? If the former, then there are many, many examples of incentives being employed to promote employees' job effectiveness and I can't see how you could eradicate the practice entirely, even if it was felt desirable.  If the latter, then surely all that has to be done is what was suggested - monitor the enforcers for a couple of weeks.

[FatAndy]

Actually, I don't think that is the crux of it.
The crux of this matter is that the litter 'wardens' are FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can, that brings with it questionable practice, a lack of common sense and greed.

Are the wardens FINANCIALLY INCENTIVISED to make as many convictions as they can?  I know the company they work for gets more money the more tickets that get issued but that doesn't necessarily mean that the employees do as well.  The only job advert I could find for XFOR, from a few years back, seemed to offer a flat rate salary but no mention of any bonuses.  Maybe the problem is more to do with the wardens being too conscientious about their work?

[SteveH]

Hi FA,  The £75 is split £45 to the wardens, £35 to the council, with a monthly draw for the wardens.....

I think we all agree no littering....I do not think our stealth approach, is working, we would achieve better end results, less littering and a less negative effect on visitors, with a different method.

The picture below, shows a warden in HI VIZ an obvious deterrent, accompanied by someone dressed as a cigarette
handing out anti litter leaflets, I think, this is a more positive approach,... it pays to advertise.
 

[FatAndy]

Hi FA,  The £75 is split £45 to the wardens, £35 to the council, with a monthly draw for the wardens.....

Shouldn't that say "£45 to the company that employs the wardens" rather than "to the wardens"?

I do agree about the fancy dress though, it could even boost tourism if the wardens dressed up as discarded fag ends, empty crisp packets or fizzy drink cans.  I can imagine there would be a certain comedic value to seeing a wheezy smoker desperately trying to leg it down Mostyn Street while being chased by a giant half eaten M&S Cheese and Pickle sandwich.  I for one would pay to see that  .

[Nemesis]