Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
3 (5.4%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
42 (75%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
7 (12.5%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (7.1%)

Total Members Voted: 56

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 169110 times)

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SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #495 on: November 14, 2016, 12:01:52 PM »
That makes a bit of sense, but not in this case Llandudno prides itself on its Victorian heritage, especially the Prom. and the original designs were well worth consideration, but I suspect not profitable enough, now they are trying to push this concrete pile on to us.

Take the case of the Tudno, if that has to be replaced with a modern look, we might not like it, but it would be understandable, but the Pier site is to important, for now and the future, in this case profit needs to be secondary, like Colwyn Bay Pier once its gone its gone, and the Pavillion site once its up.........

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #496 on: November 14, 2016, 01:19:42 PM »
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It makes perfect sense if you understand planning policy. It is not considered acceptable under current Planning Policy to create a pastiche of a Victorian building if it is a new build. Planners prefer to see a clear differentiation between old and new buildings, so actively encourage a modern design for any new construction. If the original Pavilion building had survived, Planners would want to see it restored to its original design. What they don't want are new buildings masquerading as old buildings.

That may have made some sense if we hadn't already seen the plans for the Castle Hotel in Llandudno which slightly contradicts the above statement.   The plans are for the Victorian facade to remain at the front elevation and a modern build elsewhere, so it's half old half modern and that has been agreed by CCBC.
But as no work has started on the building despite being promised by Mr Hillier,  I wonder what is going on behind the scenes  and can we expect an often used word viable to appear soon.   If that were to happen would planners have to insist on a modern design for the new construction rather than for the building to blend with its surroundings?   

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #497 on: November 14, 2016, 02:27:37 PM »
Not really a contradiction, Hugo, the original facade of the Tudno Castle hotel is being retained because it is original, whilst the interior will be modern. If the original Pavilion building had survived, it probably would have met the same fate, being as its interior was unsuited to modern usage. Sadly, because it is no longer extant, planners prefer to see a modern replacement.

Personally, Ive always said I would like to see a rebuild of the original building, but with a range of attractions/restaurants inside. Unfortunately, this choice isnt on offer and most likely never will be.

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #498 on: November 15, 2016, 09:06:04 AM »
The more I think about it, the more sense I think it would make for Mr Waldron and Mr Williams to sit down together and try and come up with a joint plan for redevelopment of the landward pier site. I've always thought that a rebuilt pavilion could house the arcade, leaving the arcade site free for a far grander entrance to the pier and maybe a few more attractions.

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DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #499 on: November 15, 2016, 09:27:17 AM »
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That makes a bit of sense, but not in this case Llandudno prides itself on its Victorian heritage, especially the Prom. and the original designs were well worth consideration, but I suspect not profitable enough, now they are trying to push this concrete pile on to us.

Take the case of the Tudno, if that has to be replaced with a modern look, we might not like it, but it would be understandable, but the Pier site is to important, for now and the future, in this case profit needs to be secondary, like Colwyn Bay Pier once its gone its gone, and the Pavillion site once its up.........
I agree with you completely, but we are up against the beauracrats.  &shake&

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #500 on: November 15, 2016, 02:27:36 PM »
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I agree with you completely, but we are up against the beauracrats.  &shake&

Nearly right DR....................beaurac  RATS      $angry$

DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #501 on: November 16, 2016, 09:36:06 AM »
Llandudno Pier owner's pledge to protect tenants' interests over pavilion plans
Published date: 16 November 2016 | Published by: Steve Craddock

Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams
THE owner of Llandudno Pier has pledged to protect his tenants after a developer proposed changes to the structure’s kiosks.

Alan Waldron has offered to move kiosks in front of the pier pavilion to a new location behind the columns of the site as part of plans to construct a combination of underground car parking, commercial floorspace and residential units.

But pier owner Adam Williams warned the relocation of the kiosks would 'most definitely' affect business on the pier.

He said: ”If we lose these kiosks there are a number of people who could lose their business. I have a responsibility to my tenants to look after their wellbeing and their future.

"Until negotiations have begun we have no intention of moving the kiosks at present.”

Mr Waldron said: “There is no requirement for the kiosks to be removed from the pier entrance.

“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”

Images showing designs for the new building released by Creu Architecture earlier this month were criticised by Pioneer readers on social media.

A spokesperson for Creu Architecture said: “Conwy Planning and Conservation Departments, Cadw, The Design Commission for Wales and local councillors have all been consulted from an early stage and have influenced the design of the proposed development on the former Pavilion Site.

“Clear direction was given through consultation that the proposal should not attempt to copy the Victorian detailing of the surrounding buildings and that it should stand independently as a modern building with its own identity and Architectural character.”

Adam Williams said he also has concerns about how the development as a whole could impact on the pier.

He said: “The extreme scenarios are that the pier could lose income and not be able to afford its maintenance so it could have to shut down, or we may have to charge people to go on the pier to make up the lost income, which I’ve never wanted to do.”

Mr Williams said he has also erected a fence between the pier and the pavilion site for health and safety reasons, in order to enclose a fire escape route for his businesses.

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DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #502 on: November 16, 2016, 12:46:16 PM »
I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.

Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #503 on: November 16, 2016, 01:28:19 PM »
If the pier owner was invited to become the developer, I wonder what his plans would look like?

SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #504 on: November 16, 2016, 03:42:55 PM »
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I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.

Again it begs the question, why are CCBC  allegedly  advising Creu for a modern development, I just do not believe it.

OrmeMac

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #505 on: November 16, 2016, 04:33:31 PM »
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“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”

I doubt his "legal advice" is any better than his planned design. Surely if you don't use access for a certain time you lose the rights to it and can't force someone to move property on their own land? Couldn't the Pier owner just move the shops forward a bit to form a walkway behind going from the Grand Hotel end to the arcade end thus giving access to the new carbuncle?

Oh the irony of the Pavilion "owner" thinking moving a few kiosks behind the columns would make it look "more aesthetically pleasing"! Only a load of TNT could improve on that planned mess.

Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #506 on: November 16, 2016, 06:08:45 PM »
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I was just reading the Pier Pavilion Development Appraisal Report (commisioned by CCBC in 2003) and it's striking how the preferred design back then was a slightly larger version of the original building (see illustration attached), rather than the contemporary structure that is apparently the preferred design now. This building was proposed to contain a range of leisure and dining facilities on 2 levels, together with car parking on one level but no apartments.

That's very interesting Dave and thanks for posting that proposed design of  the Pavilion in 2003.    To use the developer's buzz word, if this design was viable in 2003 then why is it only viable now if 54 apartments are added to the new building?
The answer is obvious and favours the developer at the expense of the town

Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #507 on: November 16, 2016, 06:41:14 PM »
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Llandudno Pier owner's pledge to protect tenants' interests over pavilion plans
Published date: 16 November 2016 | Published by: Steve Craddock

Llandudno Pier owner Adam Williams
THE owner of Llandudno Pier has pledged to protect his tenants after a developer proposed changes to the structure’s kiosks.

Alan Waldron has offered to move kiosks in front of the pier pavilion to a new location behind the columns of the site as part of plans to construct a combination of underground car parking, commercial floorspace and residential units.

But pier owner Adam Williams warned the relocation of the kiosks would 'most definitely' affect business on the pier.

He said: ”If we lose these kiosks there are a number of people who could lose their business. I have a responsibility to my tenants to look after their wellbeing and their future.

"Until negotiations have begun we have no intention of moving the kiosks at present.”

Mr Waldron said: “There is no requirement for the kiosks to be removed from the pier entrance.

“The kiosks that legally should be moved are the ones in front of the columns on the pavilion site but I have offered to drop them back behind the columns so the pier owner won't lose any revenue and it will expose the columns and therefore make it more aesthetically pleasing.”


What Mr Waldron has failed to take into account is his proposal would led to massive increases in operating costs to the Kiosk renters if they move their businesses from the current wooden structures into purpose built stone structures within a new build development. They would be liable for Rent, Business Rates, and no doubt Management Fees which would make them totally unviable.   &shake&
-- Now I can only sit and stare--

Blongb

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #508 on: November 16, 2016, 06:55:00 PM »
When I asked Mr Waldron to explain his reasoning behind the use of black reflective glass for his windows he said it was because the Pavilion had a glass roof, so thought it would be in keeping. Take a look at Dave R's Post Reply 498 above. Look at the Photograph of the Old Pavilion and make your own minds up. I think any glass roof there might have been was replaced around 1875 when it was converted from a covered swimming pool into a theatre.
-- Now I can only sit and stare--

Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #509 on: November 16, 2016, 11:39:21 PM »
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When I asked Mr Waldron to explain his reasoning behind the use of black reflective glass for his windows he said it was because the Pavilion had a glass roof, so thought it would be in keeping. Take a look at Dave R's Post Reply 498 above. Look at the Photograph of the Old Pavilion and make your own minds up. I think any glass roof there might have been was replaced around 1875 when it was converted from a covered swimming pool into a theatre.

From wiki...

The pavilion was scheduled to open in the Spring of 1883, but a ferocious storm on the night of 25 January 1883 resulted in severe damage to the glass roof. Following a rethink of the roof's design (and much embarrassment to the building's architects, who were promptly dismissed by the pier company), the decision was taken to replace the original glass roof with a sturdy lead one, more suited to the demands of a North Wales location in winter. Extensive rebuilding work was required, and the building did not open officially until September 1886.
Fester...
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