Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 381277 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1140 on: February 22, 2020, 04:29:45 pm »
No wonder Mr Waldron hasn't gone for a swim in the green lake but didn't he fracture the Grand Hotel sewer pipe too?       The site stinks in more ways than one

Offline Meleri

  • Genealogy & Research team
  • *
  • Posts: 535
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1141 on: February 22, 2020, 05:09:46 pm »
Even more confusing is, on the first Applications No 0/43785, Document 2699366 dated 12/4/2017, under Ownership Certificates it states:-
1)Mostyn Estates, 2)CCBC, 3)Adam Williams & 4)Adrian Jones 1 Rich View, Oxton, Preston, for Mr & Mrs Nixon.


Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1142 on: February 23, 2020, 03:50:10 pm »
I've no idea what that ownership issue is all about Meleri as it doesn't make any sense to me.    Nether does the copy of the Property Register that Dave R kindly supplied me with some years ago.
On the 24th April 2007 the registered owner was the elusive Mr David Taylor but it has changed hands since then.     A  H.M. Land Registry map shows the Freehold edged with red on the plan.
The land tinted blue on the map has restrictive covenants on it but I couldn't make any sense from all the jargon and in any event they may have changed with the new ownership

I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that CCBC will have read and digested all the info that appears on the Title deeds, because Waldron will be looking for the loopholes

Offline SteveH

  • Management Board Member & Newsgroup Editor
  • *
  • Posts: 12990
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1143 on: February 23, 2020, 04:16:44 pm »
Hugo, looking at the plan, the blue and pink areas, makes me think only the pink area can be used ?

I cropped an aerial photo of the site for comparison.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1144 on: February 23, 2020, 04:33:26 pm »
It's a minefield Steve and CCBC have not got a good track record when it comes to development,

If you look at the map the boundary touches the Grand Hotel on the eastern side but not on the other.    Now the Grand has some type of door/exit there so how do people from the Grand get access to the pier?     I'll leave that thought with the experts or even CCBC

Offline norman08

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 961
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1145 on: February 23, 2020, 11:13:56 pm »
Hugo I still think something dodgy going on here, I reckon Taylor is still the man and Waldron has come in, funny the plans that Taylor put on we're all given the knock back Waldron comes in excepted with conditions.

Offline Blongb

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 1077
  • I love living in Llandudno.
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1146 on: February 24, 2020, 03:20:50 pm »
I've no idea what that ownership issue is all about Meleri as it doesn't make any sense to me.    Nether does the copy of the Property Register that Dave R kindly supplied me with some years ago.
On the 24th April 2007 the registered owner was the elusive Mr David Taylor but it has changed hands since then.     A  H.M. Land Registry map shows the Freehold edged with red on the plan.
The land tinted blue on the map has restrictive covenants on it but I couldn't make any sense from all the jargon and in any event they may have changed with the new ownership

I'm assuming rightly or wrongly that CCBC will have read and digested all the info that appears on the Title deeds, because Waldron will be looking for the loopholes

B:Charge Register is mainly about the rights and responsibilities of the Mostyn's but C:Charge Register:- This register contains any charges and other matters that affect the land.

1.  (12.10.1993) A Conveyance of the land tinted pink on the filed pl;an and other land dated 15 April 1882 made between (1) The Queens Most Excellent Majesty and (2) Sir Henry Broughton Lock K.C.B. contains
"The Vendors do hereby covenant with the Purchasers their successors and assigns that while and so long as the refreshment rooms therein before referred to shall be kept open and carried on by the Purchasers their successors and assigns Any the Vendors their successors and assigns shall not sell or permit to be sold on any other part of the said Pier and Pier Extension any wines spirits beer food or other articles for consumption or refreshment  or any tobacco or cigars or cigarettes Provided nevertheless that the present shops and trades on the Pier and Pier Extension may be continued for the sale of fruits and sweets as at present but the number of such shops shall not hereafter be increased nor shall any of such shops be enlarged"

Unless Mr Waldron can persuade Mr Williams to remove that covenant from the deeds governing the Pier Pavilion Site, it makes a mockery of his planes to include 2 massive restaurants into his development. When this was brought to the notice of the Planning Committee by me, I was told it wasn't a Planning Consideration. I still to this day cannot understand how that can be true. 
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1147 on: February 24, 2020, 04:48:26 pm »
I read the conditions that way too Blongb but I thought that it was just me so I'm relieved that you thought it the same way.     As for the planning application I did object to one property that had a covenant on it and had a face to face meeting with the then Chief Planning Officer and was told that the covenant was not worth the paper it was written on.
Luckily we won but it was on other grounds and had nothing to do with the covenant.

I had posted that info before but Dave R came back with a reply that contradicted what I had been told.    It does seem absurd that the covenant  is not taken into account when the planning application is being considered but perhaps Adam Williams and Mostyn Estates can sort that out and put a stop to Waldron's folly

Offline Blongb

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 1077
  • I love living in Llandudno.
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1148 on: February 24, 2020, 05:32:06 pm »
I read the conditions that way too Blongb but I thought that it was just me so I'm relieved that you thought it the same way.     As for the planning application I did object to one property that had a covenant on it and had a face to face meeting with the then Chief Planning Officer and was told that the covenant was not worth the paper it was written on.
Luckily we won but it was on other grounds and had nothing to do with the covenant.

I had posted that info before but Dave R came back with a reply that contradicted what I had been told.    It does seem absurd that the covenant  is not taken into account when the planning application is being considered but perhaps Adam Williams and Mostyn Estates can sort that out and put a stop to Waldron's folly

 Chief Planning Officer might think the covenant was not worth the paper it was written on from a planning point of view but that is not the Legal point of view and under British Law it is enforceable provided your pockets are deep enough to pay the legal fees
Quot homines tot sententiae: suus cuique mos.
(There are as many opinions as there are people: each has his own view.)

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1149 on: February 24, 2020, 05:44:17 pm »
Let's hope that that's the case and that someone has pockets that are deep enough to pay the legal fees and that those fees will be recoverable from Waldron and any other owner involved


Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1150 on: February 25, 2020, 11:56:08 am »
Authorities are constantly talking about affordable housing and when any developer makes a planning application they are expected to include a number of affordable houses in their application.   If they do not include affordable housing then they are expected to make a contribution by way of a payment in lieu for not providing affordable housing
Since Waldron's development of "luxury" houses in Glan Conwy and the proposed ones at the former Pier Pavilion I asked the CCBC  whether or not he had made any offer of payment


 This is a copy of my letter to the CCBC
"Dear Sir or Madam,

I would appreciate it if you could advise me in the above two cases how much money was requested from or offered by these two developments in lieu of not building affordable housing on these two sites.

The Reserve has been completed so that information will be available, the former Pier Pavillion site is ongoing but the amount requested or offered will also be on record

Yours faithfully"

This is a copy of the reply I received from CCBC

"We can confirm neither of the developments detailed in your FOI accommodated on-site affordable housing nor a financial contribution.  This was the result of a viability assessment as agreed by the Planning Committee.

The Reserve Llanrwst Road Glan Conwy
Planning numbers  0/43872,  0/41914,  0/36510

ALSO

The former Pier Pavillion  Llandudno
Planning numbers 0/46393,  0/46392,  0/46208,  0/46206

It seems that Waldron can get away with anything he likes and I hope that CCBC keep close watch on this site as it's so important to the town

Incidentally has anyone seen those "luxury" houses in Glan Conwy recently.    They must have nice views but I wonder if the owners are satisfied with the quality of the build and how the site is looking now.   


Offline Helig

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 662
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1151 on: February 25, 2020, 01:28:56 pm »
The conduct of CCBC in relation to this is disturbing. The covenant is lawful and legally binding, so how can they claim it isn't worth the paper it is written on? The council seem to act like a bunch of cowboys in the Wild West. It would be possible to challenge this by Judicial Review but the costs would be so high it would need someone with very deep pockets to pursue this. I think they rely on that in the knowledge they can get away with it.

It is the same with affordable housing. This is set down in statute:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/192641/Section_106_affordable_housing_requirements_-_Review_and_appeal.pdf

It is unlawful for CCBC to ignore these requirements. Once again, they consider themselves above the law. It makes me wonder what they, or someone in the council, has to gain from their failure to comply with the statutes here. They seem content to take the risk, qui bono?

Helig.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1152 on: February 25, 2020, 06:04:59 pm »
CCBC has made a number of mistakes in the past in dealing with this site and perhaps CCBC are just glad that something is getting done at last.
That does not mean that Waldron can get away with what he likes and quite honestly the reply to my FOI  question is insulting to say the least
"We can confirm neither of the developments detailed in your FOI accommodated on-site affordable housing nor a financial contribution.  This was the result of a viability assessment as agreed by the Planning Committee.

Those 54 apartments when sold could each fetch up to £500K and that is just slightly less than the present going rate for the smaller hotels nearby  that have been put up for sale in recent years.

I could ask for a copy of the viability assessment under the FOI Act  but it's like   >?>??   and won't achieve anything and Waldron might sell the site on as I don't think that he can fund the construction himself

Offline norman08

  • Ad Free Member
  • *
  • Posts: 961
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1153 on: February 25, 2020, 09:00:52 pm »
Hi Hugo having seen waldrons assets on line he himself has nt got the cash, so is what I've said before still owned by Mr T and he would fund it 🤔, every time we go through glanconwy look at them houses how on earth did that go through getting built on a reclaimed flood plain.

Offline Hugo

  • Management board member
  • *
  • Posts: 13890
Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #1154 on: February 26, 2020, 08:41:41 am »
Norman,    I seem to remember that ages ago there was an article in a local paper about the site and it did say that Waldron had purchased it with the help of another person whose name I don't know
He certainly can't fund the development he proposes but he can sell it on or retain some control in the buildings

That development in Glan Conwy is unbelievable, where once there stood one nice building there are now 8 of them but see how compact the houses and the parking spaces are.   Any visitors to the place  have to park on the A470  at £575K  for a small semi you would expect perfection and good build quality so I hope that the owners have at least got that.
Take a good look at the end house nearest the village, I think that it's only a matter of time before a car is driven into it