Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 380299 times)

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Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #930 on: March 16, 2018, 08:21:18 am »
I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!
The problem with your argument is that most people's preferred development option:

Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside

...would require far more employees (probably 200-300) than the proposed plan. Can I ask therefore, if you are also opposed to a leisure & entertainment complex being built on the site?

Offline Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #931 on: March 16, 2018, 08:23:26 am »
Local 'democracy' can be a very depressing arena, especially when so many simply attempt to protect their own, highly vested interests. And I sometimes wonder if the sheer futility of dealing with the average CCBC representative is what deters folk from becoming involved in any sort of protest.  But that's exactly what we have a local press for, although it would appear that Trinity Mirror don't go out of their way to encourage serious, in-depth investigative journalism.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.


Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #932 on: March 16, 2018, 08:27:48 am »
Regarding the ability to buy the Pavilion site, in his speech Adam Williams the Pier owner stated Mr Waldron had a lock out agreement to prevent anyone else buying the site. He also mentioned if this went ahead the revenue to the Pier would drop by 25%, so would have to close.
Mr Williams bought the Pier in May 2015. The Pavilion proposals only appeared in April 2017 (I believe Mr Waldron bought a one year option to purchase the Pavilion site a few months prior to announcing his plans).

If I bought a property with a vacant development site next to it that could seriously impinge on my business, I'd make damn sure I bought that as well.

Offline born2run

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #933 on: March 16, 2018, 10:22:13 am »
Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!

Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.

The anti kingdom security page has over 7000 followers and nobody in authority gives a toss about that either!

Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #934 on: March 16, 2018, 10:37:47 am »
So, I  thought I'd do a little research into the current ownership situation with the Pier Pavilion site.

The site is currently owned by Quay Developments (2016) Limited, a company controlled by Mr Alan Waldron:
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/09947075

It purchased the site from the Nixon family on 10th May 2017.

The price paid was £1,000,000.

The purchase price was partly funded by a £400,000 loan from an individual called Mr Ronald William Porter, who currently resides in Thailand.


Offline Edith Perry

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #935 on: March 16, 2018, 10:40:55 am »
I'd just like to point out a couple of issues I have with this thinking. The first is that just because the council neglected their duty, doesn't mean locals should suffer Costa Del Sol style holiday flats at the entrance to the pier. In this case many would argue that nothing is preferable to something, if that something is this Waldron development.

The second point I'd like to raise is that according to the Daily Post (I know), 75% of jobs in the leisure industry in Llandudno are filled by migrant workers. So you're painting a situation where we have the double whammy of extra burden on the narrow roads around the site and on services in Llandudno from the flats (the majority of which will invariably go to people from out of town), then add to that the influx of migrant workers who will need to move to the area, find houses, flats, doctors, schools etc; and add to that again the detrimental effect sticking a massive block of non-Victoria flats at the entrance to the pier will have on tourism, spoiling Llandudno's very proud Victorian seaside heritage.

You're proposing that for the sake of employing 25 locals (on low wages no doubt), Llandudno throws away its very soul and puts a massive burden on local resources. All for the sake of a bit of council tax!
The problem with your argument is that most people's preferred development option:

Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside

...would require far more employees (probably 200-300) than the proposed plan. Can I ask therefore, if you are also opposed to a leisure & entertainment complex being built on the site?

By no means, because by my calculations, the mean benefit to the area from the added tourist attraction outweighs any burdens; in which case Llandudno should welcome with open arms anyone willing to help make that happen. This is singularly not the case with the Waldron carbuncle, which is designed solely for the benefit of a few and to enrich even fewer, whilst damaging the heart of Llandudno's image as a Victorian Seaside resort. Not only does it add nothing to the site, it detracts hugely from its surroundings, so it's like trying to compare apples and oranges, I'm afraid.

For me it all comes down to, 'whom does the development benefit'; if the answer is some version of 'locals and the local area', then I'm happy. If it happens to benefit migrant workers at the same time, more power to everyone. But if a development adds strain to locals and the local area, whilst benefiting mostly folk from out of town, as I believe this Waldron development does; well then, you already have my opinion on that.


Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #936 on: March 16, 2018, 11:23:36 am »
Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.

Offline OrmeMac

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #937 on: March 16, 2018, 11:27:36 am »
So it’s going ahead then?
Because the Welsh Assembly will have to rule on the legal planning criteria only.
Therefore it’s passed I believe.

That's not necessarily the case so the fight must continue.

Offline Bri Roberts

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #938 on: March 16, 2018, 12:01:18 pm »
Hugo, I think councillors have to be there to be eligible to cast a vote and I don’t think any of them were there.

Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #939 on: March 16, 2018, 12:23:21 pm »
That’s a very poor show from those councillors then.  &shake&
What were they doing that was more important than this issue?
I think that sums politicians up perfectly.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #940 on: March 16, 2018, 12:27:02 pm »
It also reinforces a long held view of mine that local councils shouldn't be entrusted with anything more important than fixing potholes.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline born2run

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #941 on: March 16, 2018, 12:36:23 pm »
They are fixing a hole

Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #942 on: March 16, 2018, 01:05:13 pm »
Is the person who refers to the Facebook page talking about Save Our Seafront? It has 300 likes/followers and comments from local councilor Ian Turner and our AM Janet Finch-Saunders. The 6 people who voted for the application appeared to be outraged that their power base was being taken away from them, more concerned with that than making a good decision for Llandudno. They ignored the directive not to give approval sticking two fingers up to the directive. Parking under provision...Before Xmas the highways dept said there was a shortfall of 195 spaces for the commercial parts of the scheme...this was written into the report prepared by Dave Watson which the councillors all had in December. The highways rep didn't know how big a shortfall when asked by Greg Robbins yesterday and 10 minutes later came up with 80-90 short...big difference! And how, can anyone please tell me, will resurfacing Maelgwyn car park produce more spaces to mitigate for the shortfall... Magic fairy dust in the Tarmac maybe? The person who said the Chairwoman should have given her reasons is right, Dave Watson practically bullied Greg Robbins into providing his reasons against!




Yes CMG, last time I looked, 272 likes for that page, from a town with a population of over 20,000  :laugh: :laugh:
To put that in perspective, my own little Facebook business page has about 330 followers, and I know that no one gives a toss about me!
You’ve kind of proved my point for me.

My business running for 4 years only has a few hundred likes. I don't think I have proved your point at all.
« Last Edit: March 16, 2018, 02:19:46 pm by Ian »

Offline SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #943 on: March 16, 2018, 01:09:02 pm »
Thanks Bri and Edith for supplying the information about how the vote was arrived at.      I'm surprised at the fact that some  Councillors didn't vote: Cllrs, Dave Rees, Dave Roberts, Phil Capper and Nigel Smith.       Was there a reason for that, as the matter was so important they should have voted one way or another even if it was by postal vote or otherwise.

David Rees      Llansanffraid
David Roberts  Rhos
Phil Capper      Llysfaen
Nigel Smith      Kinmel Bay

Offline Meleri

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #944 on: March 16, 2018, 01:29:56 pm »
The 4 Councillors mentioned did not attend the meeting and sent apologise for not attending, it was mentioned at the start of the Meeting. As the meeting went on for longer than normal 3 of the Councillors left about 2/3rds of the way through, which I think is a disgrace given they are only asked to attend the Planning Meetings once a month. The Chairwoman asked that no more Councillors leave the meeting or there would not be enough councillors left to vote as they require a certain amount by law.  &shake&