Poll

What do you think should be the way forward for the Pier Pavilion site?

Modern design, as put forward by Mr Waldron, featuring restaurants, apartments etc
4 (6.1%)
Recreation of original Pier Pavilion design, but with leisure and entertainment facilities inside
50 (75.8%)
Larger version of original design, with leisure, entertainment and apartments included
8 (12.1%)
Leave site empty for another 20 years
4 (6.1%)

Total Members Voted: 66

Author Topic: Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site  (Read 380076 times)

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Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #615 on: March 08, 2017, 04:45:48 pm »
.....the first time I have ever seen 'top-quality restaurants' and 'Burger King' on the same page.......

Are aspirations for the site really that low?

It's in a mass-market, seaside town at one end of a pier..... with a low to medium demographic of visitor.... what do you REALLY think you're going to get?
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #616 on: March 08, 2017, 04:56:28 pm »
I see minor cosmetic changes only, mainly the colour, it's still a hideous, oversized block of flats at the epicentre of tourism!  The two massive restaurants are so large that they could well put other restaurants in town out of business! I think they are a ploy to help get the plans through. I doubt they will get filled and when they don't the space will be converted into more flats. ( the original documents in the library last year said it had been designed so that it was adaptable for future changes!!) I've heard, from what I think is a reliable source, that there are covenants on the deeds which stipulate that no alcohol can be sold from the site and food can only be sold to theatre audiences....so what restaurant chains would be interested in it if they can't sell alcohol I wonder? It is an over development of the footprint, it would completely change all viewpoints into the town and from all points in it. The picture still shows Waldron's kiosks by the pillars with access to the pier. The pier owner has not agreed to move his kiosks to provide this access...and I'm told he won't be doing so. Therefore there will be no through way from North Parade to the pier as Waldron is claiming. It in no way conforms to the CCBC 2012 Development Brief. And as for building it, how will he do it (I've written to him twice to ask but he has not done me the courtesy of replying).  Where will the portacabins for his site office and the facilities for the workforce be located where will the tons and tons of building materials be unloaded and housed (securely) until used? Where will all the construction vehicles park? Where will any plant and heavy machinery be kept? How will he fulfill H&S requirements to protect people on the pier...there is no room between the pier kiosks and the old iron pillars to erecting scaffolding! So North Parade from the Church Walks roundabout will have to be closed off and used as the building site....this will kill off not only my business but all of the other businesses on North Parade, Happy Valley Road, Marine Drive, including the toll road revenue and the bus tours. Two year build...he is having a laugh. It's taking 18 months trouble the new lifeboat station, a fraction of the size. I bet it will take 3 years or more given the Constraints of access and site problems.  Given the problem with the Victorian sewage drains will the sewers be up to the job of effluent from 54 flats and two huge restaurants? On the original plan there was nowhere for any bins!! Who will want to pay over the odds to live in "luxury" flats on top of a pier with the associated noise and food smells wafting ip..and those flats on the North side will have no view and be dark all day....would you buy one? My house and the two either side will have a complete loss of privacy as dozens of flat Windows will have direct line of sight into our buildings. Loss of light all morning will mean we have to use electric lights...hardly good for the environment let alone our bills.  The whole thing is ill conceived as far as I'm concerned.


Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #617 on: March 08, 2017, 05:20:29 pm »
CMG    I'm sorry to have to say this but I raised this point about another planning application that I was objecting to.     I had a face to face meeting with the Chief Planning officer for CCBC and his exact words were that "the Covenant is not worth the paper it is written on"  and it will not affect a planning application.
I agree with everything you say though and had a look at the revised plans and they tower above those hotels in North Parade and the top of the Headland Hotel in Hill Terrace is just about visible.
Although you cannot object to your view being spoilt you can object to a loss of light and privacy and some hotels will definitely be affected by the building.
I was advised by Dwr Cymru that you cannot build over a main sewer but if the reports I've read are correct Mr Waldron's men have already drilled on their site and created a stink there when they hit the Grand's sewer system.
Waldron uses a lot of buzz words but I hope that CCBC are not fooled by them as he has already gone back on things he had already promised

Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #618 on: March 08, 2017, 06:25:18 pm »
Hi Hugo, I do realise the Covenent point is nothing to do with planning and is not a valid objection...but it might put restaurants off if they think there could be a legal problem.  I really don't think the restaurants will materialise. I would lay odds on it ending up as all flats ...IF it gets approved.

Offline Neil

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #619 on: March 08, 2017, 07:03:14 pm »
I am surprised that people who have commented on the two designs cannot see the difference between the horizontal orientation of the first design and the vertical orientation of the second design which is more in keeping with the surrounding buildings.

Offline Ian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #620 on: March 08, 2017, 07:39:55 pm »
That's interesting, because examining the photos carefully it seems to me that the first design is more vertically oriented, thus conveying an impression of greater height. But the sad fact is that the differences are mainly cosmetic, IMV. They're both concrete and steel, both boxy-looking and both have the appearance redolent of the 1960s council flat building boom in the major cities.
Nothing is so firmly believed as that which we least know.  ― Michel de Montaigne

Si hoc legere scis, nimis eruditionis habes.

Offline SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #621 on: March 08, 2017, 07:43:04 pm »
I have had another look at the photos, and I see what you mean, however despite being a bit more in keeping it is still, I feel an over development, ........another thought came to mind when looking at the photos why would they even submit the original design, .....AW says he only wants the best for Llandudno, so why  &shake& .....doesnt say much for his character let alone his buildings.

Offline Fester

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #622 on: March 08, 2017, 08:08:43 pm »
All arguments considered, it's The Grand Hotel that's the real eyesore.
Fester...
- Semper in Excretum, Sole Profundum Variat -

Offline Moelycrio

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #623 on: March 08, 2017, 09:03:12 pm »
Well I am going to stick my neck out and say I think it looks good. We aren't going to ever recreate the original and I am not one for pastiche with fake columns and plastic moulding. I think it looks modern but sympathetic, which is what i think would be best for the site.
I think it's a great improvement on the original design and also fits in far better with the Grand Hotel next door.

It's much better than the first design. Realistically, this is as good as it will get. It juxtaposes nicely with the Victorian pier but makes the dump that is The Grand lok worse. We should all be worried about the construction disruption though, its not an easy site.

Offline Cambrian

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #624 on: March 08, 2017, 09:58:31 pm »
Just a couple of factual things.

The pipe from the Grand is legally a drain, not a sewer and is not in any case vested in Welsh Water as a public sewer.

A covenant can be set aside by application to the Lands Tribunal who normally take a contemporary and reasonable view.  Many of the covenants relating to alcohol were imposed a time when, for example, our pubs were prohibited from opening on Sundays.  Times and attitudes do change. A covenant can only be enforced by whoever benefits from the covenant and not by the public at large. A developer can, of course, reach an agreement with the beneficiary to remove the covenant.

Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #625 on: March 09, 2017, 09:37:08 am »
I see minor cosmetic changes only, mainly the colour, it's still a hideous, oversized block of flats at the epicentre of tourism!  The two massive restaurants are so large that they could well put other restaurants in town out of business! I think they are a ploy to help get the plans through. I doubt they will get filled and when they don't the space will be converted into more flats. ( the original documents in the library last year said it had been designed so that it was adaptable for future changes!!) I've heard, from what I think is a reliable source, that there are covenants on the deeds which stipulate that no alcohol can be sold from the site and food can only be sold to theatre audiences....so what restaurant chains would be interested in it if they can't sell alcohol I wonder? It is an over development of the footprint, it would completely change all viewpoints into the town and from all points in it. The picture still shows Waldron's kiosks by the pillars with access to the pier. The pier owner has not agreed to move his kiosks to provide this access...and I'm told he won't be doing so. Therefore there will be no through way from North Parade to the pier as Waldron is claiming. It in no way conforms to the CCBC 2012 Development Brief. And as for building it, how will he do it (I've written to him twice to ask but he has not done me the courtesy of replying).  Where will the portacabins for his site office and the facilities for the workforce be located where will the tons and tons of building materials be unloaded and housed (securely) until used? Where will all the construction vehicles park? Where will any plant and heavy machinery be kept? How will he fulfill H&S requirements to protect people on the pier...there is no room between the pier kiosks and the old iron pillars to erecting scaffolding! So North Parade from the Church Walks roundabout will have to be closed off and used as the building site....this will kill off not only my business but all of the other businesses on North Parade, Happy Valley Road, Marine Drive, including the toll road revenue and the bus tours. Two year build...he is having a laugh. It's taking 18 months trouble the new lifeboat station, a fraction of the size. I bet it will take 3 years or more given the Constraints of access and site problems.  Given the problem with the Victorian sewage drains will the sewers be up to the job of effluent from 54 flats and two huge restaurants? On the original plan there was nowhere for any bins!! Who will want to pay over the odds to live in "luxury" flats on top of a pier with the associated noise and food smells wafting ip..and those flats on the North side will have no view and be dark all day....would you buy one? My house and the two either side will have a complete loss of privacy as dozens of flat Windows will have direct line of sight into our buildings. Loss of light all morning will mean we have to use electric lights...hardly good for the environment let alone our bills.  The whole thing is ill conceived as far as I'm concerned.
So....you're not that keen on it then?

Offline Hugo

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #626 on: March 09, 2017, 09:57:03 am »
Cambrian,   I was just saying about my personal experience with Dwr Cymru when they put in an objection to me building a conservatory  at the rear of my house.
I phoned them up and was told that they had objected because I was building on top of a main drain.  I asked them exactly what they meant by a main drain and their explanation was because the drain was a sewer pipe from adjoining properties.     I argued that no main drain came past the back of my property and they said it did and had a map to prove that it did.
To cut a long story short, they were wrong and I was right because the main drain is in the front of my house.
My point is that this drain only starts from two doors away and passes my house for about 100 yards then enters the main sewer in the street.
If Dwr Cymru can object to that then surely they must object to an industrial amount of stuff that flows from the Grand's drain or whatever it is called now.  If they didn't object then they would be failing in their responsibility.
As for Covenants then I think they are a non starter in the case of the Pier Pavilion.

Offline CMG

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #627 on: March 09, 2017, 03:26:30 pm »
I know absolutely nothing of legal matters but I do wonder about these covenants....what if someone tries to enforce them in order to put the "two international chains" off? I can think of someone who might try to have them enforced (not me I'm not in a position to). If the covenents are legal wouldn't they have to be contested by Waldron to get them removed? 

Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats! 

Offline DaveR

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #628 on: March 09, 2017, 04:08:50 pm »
Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?

Offline SteveH

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Re: Llandudno's Pier Pavilion redevelopment site
« Reply #629 on: March 09, 2017, 04:17:53 pm »
Covenents aside, I am very sceptical about these two international chains he claims are interested in taking the restaurant spaces. If you have seen the original plans you will know how huge both are....at a guess over a hundred covers in each.  I think big international businesses will do their due diligence and reasearch the market and more than likely come to the conclusion that it would not be a good opportunity as the restaurant market is pretty saturated. Being the cynical person I am I think these restaurant spaces are a red herring, just there to help him get the planning permission, as the council has said it would like there to be something for tourism included. If the plans do get approved I think the restaurants will never get off the ground and the space will simply be converted into more flats!
I assume you are joking? Restaurants on that site would be a gold mine, I imagine there would be stiff competition to land such a prime site. Sitting on the balcony eating your lunch, whilst enjoying the fabulous view - whats not to like?

I agree, and am I correct in saying they would be the only non hotel restaurants on the prom.?